SPEAKER_02 0:03

Hey there, Global Citizens. Welcome back to the Global Talks, your podcast dedicated to uncovering the joys and challenges of global citizens. So, you were thinking about moving to Portugal from the UK or the US. Firstly, let me congratulate you on this choice. It's a great place. Portugal is an incredibly welcoming country with fantastic weather, a laid-back lifestyle, and a much lower cost of living than in the major British and American cities. There are over 7,000 Americans and over 46,000 British residents in Portugal. So it's a country with a strong expat community. But there are a few things that you need to know about before making the move to Portugal. It's not only about the visa and the number of expats. And to help us with this research, we have recruited an A team of specialists. Christina Hipsley, director of the Portuguese Chamber of Commerce in London. And also Jonathan Littman. John here. He's the founder of Red Bridge Lisbon, a networking platform for entrepreneurs and startup founders from Portugal and California. And he also has his consultancy snowball narrative. And our very young Jonathan Donsa, head of legal at Global System Solutions. Christina, Joana, John, welcome. Thank you for having me here. So now we're going to talk about moving to Portugal. John lives here. Joana was born here, but has lots of tips. And Christina is um the head of the Portuguese Chamber of Commerce in the UK, and she runs a um a conference called Moving to Portugal. And um, and so she's been she's been giving advice about uh Portugal to lots of people. But before we start, I think it's always good to have an icebreaker. We did a bit of research, me and our um production team here, who you can't see, but we'll show later with um the images of the team. Um about things that you need to know. Everyone needs to know a couple of things before moving to a new country. And uh, we all know about Pastel Dinata, so let's forget about it. And uh, so I'm gonna ask you if you are aware about some um some knowledge that only specialists of uh about Portugal will know. So let me test you guys. Um the bar sellers rooster. Do you know about the bus sellers rooster?

SPEAKER_00 2:43

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 2:44

I don't know. Okay. Um's in the UK.

SPEAKER_03 2:51

It's all over Nando's in Nando's, but I live, as you know, because she's that I lived in London, I lived in uh Lisbon for 10 years, and I was very lucky in that time to travel all over Portugal. The Barcellus rooster is a national emblem of Portugal, it's extraordinary, it's everywhere. Tell me, what's the story behind Barcelos is a town in the north of Portugal, but um I forget the exact significance of the rooster. I actually, Joanna, you're gonna know this. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 3:23

It's the story of a pilgrim that he was uh sentenced to death penalty by hanging. And just before he was hanged, he asked to speak with the judge again, and the judge was having a feast with his friends, and they were having a roost um roasted rooster, and to prove to show his innocence, he he told the judge that the roost the rooster would sing uh when he was to be hanged. And then uh when they were to hang him, they say they say the roost starts singing, and then the man was um he was safe.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

It was safe, yeah. The rooster came back to life. Obviously, this is what happened. But yeah, it is that the black rooster with the dots, yeah, that one and the hearts, yeah. But I didn't know about it before I was searching, yeah. So now, another one. Um, we uh when we talk about Portugal, we always think, you know, uh Porto, Lisbon, Algarve, and there is a lot more about in even in um in geographically speaking about Portugal, it's not only that stretch uh attached to uh of the land attached to Spain, there's also um Madeira Islands, there's also Asaurus Islands. But I'd like to know if you heard of uh the illegal selvages before savage islands. You're aware of that, right? So the Portuguese know the English Selvagic? Yes, yeah, they're native Madeira. Yes, it's the archipelago of Madeira. So there are, I will talk about this because I I love this. I also never heard of Linda Silvages before, but I did some research, and if you go on Wikipedia, you'll find that only six inhabitants. Two of them are permanent rangers, and the others are scientists that go back and forth. Um, it's not a holiday destination, it's a barnland just made of rocks, hence the name Illes Silvages. Do you have anything else to add?

SPEAKER_00 5:43

I actually do. I was uh I was promoting Portugal in California with a Brit uh last week, uh Bruce Hawker, and one of the attendees is from the Algarve, and Miguel Fernandes, and he will take you to an island which is supposedly uninhabited, but one man lives there, and if you bring food and wine, he will cook for you and you can spend the day there.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

Um, well, we all know, of course, you guys know, that Portugal was once an empire, and it's not a coincidence that over two uh hundred and seventy million people in the world speak Portuguese. And um so yeah, do you want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Do you want to add well I'm I'm one Californian that speaks Portuguese.

SPEAKER_01 6:28

Yeah, 271 million.

SPEAKER_00 6:32

And uh I I think it's it's a wonderful language. I have lots of friends also who are Brazilian. Uh there are a lot of Brazilians actually in California. There are there's a history of Portuguese from the Azores in California in the and then in the in the near San Francisco. In fact, one kilometer from where I live in Sausalito, which is the sister city of Cascais, there is a Portuguese club. Portuguese club of all places there. No, and it's it's it's just a historic club that that still exists and they have great events, but uh in my little club, Red Bridge, we're going to encourage the speaking of Portuguese.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

Great, excellent.

SPEAKER_03 7:20

Okay, I was going to add to what Jonathan said about uh Portuguese spoken in uh in the States and and how widely spread the Portuguese are in in North America, particularly on the Californian coast and also over on the East Coast around New York and Massachusetts. But as we all know, Portuguese is the most spoken language south of the equator in the world, uh because of Brazil, because of Angola, because of Mozambique. Uh, don't forget there are 500,000 uh Portuguese speakers in South Africa. Um, and therefore uh it's I think it's the fifth most spoken language in the world because of Brazil, because of Angola, because of Mozambique, because of Portugal.

SPEAKER_02 8:06

And you do speak Portuguese, don't you, Christina? You speak Portuguese, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:10

I uh I lived in Lisbon ten years and I had a business and um I had no choice. It was the immersion technique. I learned, I'm sure Jonathan remembers this. The first year I had no idea what was going on at all. And then after a year, uh the words started to make sense and it worked.

SPEAKER_00 8:28

But um that first year was quite yeah, I I think telenovellas help a lot. If you have a silly telenovela, watch in the background, yeah, while you wash the dishes.

SPEAKER_03 8:41

Uh it's better now because a lot of Portuguese TV is in Portuguese. But uh some years ago, uh well that the the the the the imported TB programs and also the big Hollywood movies in in Portugal are always still uh subtitled in English. Sorry, spoken in English is subtitled in Portuguese. So all the Portuguese I know, and so many of them speak beautiful English, many of them say it's because they grew up watching English spoken on TV. And that's an absolutely crucial part of why so many Portuguese speak such good English.

SPEAKER_00 9:15

Well, a tip for our listeners, um, on Artepe, which is the national streaming, there's uh telenovela se chama O Sabio called O Sabio. It has witches, and it has uh 300 episodes, and it has uh legendas, so it has subtitles, perfect Lisboa, Portuguese.

SPEAKER_01 9:39

Excellent. So it's like a sort of uh Portuguese Harry Potter kind of Lord of the Range Modern Day Witches, single design.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Love it. Okay, so guys, well, we'll test your Portuguese. I mean, I don't have to test and show you that's amazing. Uh, but it's good, so it's great seeing um this beautiful language, floor the laço being spoken um everywhere. Um, so the next point now is the uh we'll go very quickly on that, but it's very important because a lot of people are researching about moving to Portugal, especially if they come from the US, they get surprised to find out that there's a public health service. And it's um similar to the NHS in the UK, but not quite the same. Um, we will touch their points later uh with Joanna here. But uh but yeah, it's um it's a very good health service, and there is a public health service in Portugal. So let's jump to the next Koreas.

SPEAKER_00 10:37

Can I just add one thing?

SPEAKER_02 10:38

Of course you can.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

In California in America, the costs of healthcare care are ridiculous. So this is a huge attraction for Californians. Uh it's extremely affordable, it's extremely accessible, high quality. Unfortunately, we don't have that.

SPEAKER_02 10:57

Yeah, but we'll talk about that one later. Um and um so yeah, let's move forward because otherwise we won't be able to cover everything. So, do you did you guys know um that um Portugal is the world's sixth uh largest consumer of fish, um consuming almost 57 kilograms per capita per year. So I weigh 57 kilograms, so it's a whole a whole shisani per year. It's a lot of fish, and um but it doesn't surprise me because when you look at the Portuguese uh uh dishes and the cuisine, it's all heavily based on on fish and and and seafood. Um but you know that. I think we're seeing it. Yeah? She then?

SPEAKER_03 11:48

Yes, yes. Oh, I'm sorry, yes. It's my favorite uh dish of all time. And and the the Portuguese tradition of eating a great deal of fish originally because of cod, but then um cod is now you know in in uh short spot. But the fish in Portugal is the freshest I've ever come across. I'm sure Jonathan would agree. And uh once you've had Portuguese fish, it's very difficult to go back. And I find that uh the it's the first thing I want to do. Luckily with this job, I go from the UK to Portugal several times a year, and the first thing I want to do is go and eat fresh fish on the beach. And uh as you know, the Portuguese have 365 different ways to cook cod because cod being their national dish and uh salt.

SPEAKER_00 12:32

I think they have 10,000 actually.

SPEAKER_03 12:40

And there are various traditional times of the year where you salted cod, particularly Christmas Eve. Uh, but also many times, as Jonathan and I both know, uh, to our great pleasure, when you go to a restaurant in Portugal, uh a typical pashka where you eat the dish of the day, there'll always be a couple of cod fish recipes uh on the menu. Uh, because uh particularly dried cod is still a relatively cost-effective way of creating a meal, as long as you know how to rehydrate it and prepare it. But uh every Portuguese knows how to do that. Good.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

So when you have that much fish um, or like when you put that much effort on your plate, you also end up uh working with the matching what you drink with the food. So the wine industry in Portugal is booming, um, and there's a lot of consumption of wine here, but I think let's focus on the fortified wines because I think that's that's an interesting um stats here that I want to share. Um, so basically, when the British were fighting with the Frank with the Franks in the 17th, 18th century, they had to turn to Portugal for wine. So the two British brothers came here and they decided to put um brandy onto the wine to ensure the uh product was traveling well to the UK, and thus Porto Port was born. Around the same time, um, this similar thing happened in Madeira with Madeira wine, but also because of the heat. So the Madeira wine became fortified for that special uh reason. And these two fortified wines uh now make up 40% of uh Portugal's yearly exports.

SPEAKER_00 14:35

I have a point here.

SPEAKER_01 14:36

Do you go?

SPEAKER_00 14:37

So my father had a great law firm, uh actually were 300 lawyers, and for their 100th anniversary, they arranged for 100-year-old Madeira wine.

SPEAKER_02 14:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

For a huge celebration.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Was it Madeira wine? I think I heard this side before. But though it was bought or something.

SPEAKER_00 14:57

It was Madeira.

SPEAKER_02 14:58

Okay, guys, moving on, because we can talk about wine forever here. So um from wine, I think I like to move to cork. Um, I'll give you something, some nice little urner for Portugal. Um, so we all know that Portugal produces a lot of um cork, but um the country accounts for over 50% of the world's cork supply. And uh, but it doesn't go to just to bottles anymore, and it's actually now in space. So, yeah, I think John knew about that. Um, so some of the LGAP's cork is currently orbiting Mars on the European Space Agency uh Mars Express.

SPEAKER_00 15:41

Also, uh famous designers are now designing beautiful furniture.

SPEAKER_02 15:46

With cork, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:47

And it's fabulous for insulation and other purposes.

SPEAKER_03 15:52

Yes, here in the UK there are many uh uh producers and interior designers creating homewares, or rather, it's they're being imported from Portugal. There's some very clever factories in Portugal now making beautiful um tableware uh and things like teapot made of cork because they're incredibly light, uh they're brilliant brilliant insulation. So we're we're seeing a lot of homewares made of cork being exported from Portugal into the UK at the moment, and also um uh it's used in interior design for insulation in the in the bathrooms or for flooring or cork composites is a very popular uh item here. And uh I think the as the consumption of cork in in corks, as in the the rise of screw top bottles for wine, which is uh sadly a uh a growing area, the Portuguese are finding many, many different ways to compensate and use the cork in other in other applications, which is I'd say uh in higher range.

SPEAKER_00 16:58

Uh also I believe it's protected, so don't dare uh try to cut down a cork tree. You could go to jail.

SPEAKER_03 17:05

Well, it takes over fifty years, doesn't it, to create a cork uh a cork uh field or a um uh uh uh cork trees are incredibly slow to grow. Cork trees take far longer than they will say you plant a cork forest for your grandchildren and an olive uh grove for your children because the cork trees take 50 years and the olive trees take 25 years to get to complete fruition. Oh see? So it's a long-term game.

SPEAKER_02 17:35

Long-term game. Um I'm glad I've really got a very good team of knowledge uh people of our poor school because uh yeah, you're putting my research to shame here. Um so I was just gonna say something very obvious because we're talking about table, yeah. So we went with wine and then cork and food. So let's talk about uh tea. Um, so I'm sure you heard that uh the um the first British tea drinking uh queen was Portuguese, Catherine of Braganza, Braganza, Katarina. Um it's not true actually that she brought tea to Portugal, to Portugal, to the UK, but she made it fashionable. Um because uh green tea was already there in the UK in the 1600s. But there's also, I think the um the circle will close here very interestingly because then the Americans created the tea bag in the 1900s. Um and I was gonna have a cup of tea here, um, but obviously not. Um yeah, did you know that about the tea-drinking queen on the UK being Portuguese?

SPEAKER_03 18:53

Yeah, uh it's it's very true that Katrina Bragassa, who married Charles II here in in uh 1665, if I'm not mistaken, she um 64 tradition that's good. 64 uh she brought the tradition, she organized the tradition of drinking tea in the afternoon around four o'clock. That was the tradition that she created, and her whole social cultural tradition grew up in the UK around that, but because before that they tended to have uh their mealtimes at very, very different times. They'd have a late breakfast and then high tea around five o'clock, so there was no dining in the evening. Anyway, so tea gave the middle classes a chance to entertain without the expense of heavy meals, and uh so it became a hugely popular pastime here in the UK, and as everybody knows, the Portuguese now I think the British are obsessed with tea because all we do is want to have a cup of tea. And actually, the Portuguese these days are tea on their coffee, aren't they, Jonathan? They drink more coffee than tea, I think.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

They do, but I think there is uh there's great support for cha, uh cha verte, cha preto, uh, and my little entrepreneurs club, which has a uh a very large entrepreneurs' sister club in San Francisco. We have afternoon tea, which is at 3 p.m. Uh and and it's a social tea to meet everyone, and I'm looking forward to making this happen here as well.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Is it Portuguese tea that you serve there?

SPEAKER_00 20:27

Uh I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Not yet. Soon. Soon. Okay. Very much. It's a very delicate green tea, and I'll be very honest with you. I'm not a big fan of green tea, so I only find very um, I'm very particular about the ones that I drink. So this goriana with orange pico is delicious, and there's also one in Porto, I forgot the name, tea, chacamellia, camellia teas. Um they make a green tea that is lovely for kombucha as well.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

I think the only challenge for tea in Portugal is you're competing with great coffee. I think Portugal has fine coffee. And and I think a lot of Californians are surprised at how good the coffee is.

SPEAKER_02 21:17

But that's good. That's um, I think there's a consumer market for both. Drink your coffee in the morning and tea in the afternoon. So, uh, guys, I'm really glad you're here because uh that shows that you guys are just the best team to talk about Portugal, you know everything. Um, the last thing that was going to bring to the table, the last curiosity, is not really one, but um, some people, when they choose Portugal to move, they choose because of the weather. But they should be aware that there are winters here too. You know, it's mild, but don't be a clown, you know, bring a coat and you know, choose a house with a good insulation because that's very important.

SPEAKER_03 21:58

She's an I'm so sorry. Sorry, I I missed the last couple of minutes of what you said. I'll just hang on. I mentioned that there's also winter here.

SPEAKER_02 22:07

Um and uh and that people should be aware when they move to Portugal. It's definitely not you know the UK winter, uh, but it's still it can be can be a bit cold.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Um but I would add it's often sunny too. So the rain will come and the sun will come back later.

SPEAKER_02 22:26

Yeah, yeah. Good. Right. So now, given all this information that we shared here, um I'll start with John. What why do you think people are moving to Portugal? What's bringing them to Portugal?

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Strangely enough, as I mentioned, I was working with the British uh last week, ironically, in California, uh a number of seminars in Los Angeles and San Francisco. Californians, uh, and as I may have mentioned before, I'm not an American, Californian.

SPEAKER_01 22:56

Good.

SPEAKER_02 22:56

Yeah, I respect that.

SPEAKER_00 22:58

There's a great interest. Uh I think it's very complex. It's it's the culture of Portugal, it's the kindness of of the Portuguese. The climate is incredibly similar to California. It's a little uh beautiful California. Um I also think the Portuguese are much more open to, you know, foreigners or immigrants. I don't like to use the word expat. I I think uh there is a a new and thriving entrepreneurial ecosystem. That's part of why our little club Red Bridge exists. There's unicorns. Um a lot of San Francisco and California tech firms are opening an office here to explore Europe and Africa where business are. And it's just much more practical than being in London. Paris.

SPEAKER_02 23:59

Definitely. It seems like it's a very fertile ground for um if you want to start a company.

SPEAKER_00 24:05

Um There are many uh EU grants, you know. I work with the team, and and a lot of firms can get an EU or Portuguese grants, and you can easily get tech visas for for the staff. You can bring talent, you know, from Eastern Europe and other places. Uh, and most of these engineers would rather be here in the sun than the snow or next to a war. Um, so some other reason.

SPEAKER_03 24:35

Well, here at the Portuguese Chamber of Commerce of the UK, we run a year-round program called Moving to Portugal, uh, ironically, uh, where we do a series of webinars all year. But more as in Portland, we do two live shows and seminars a year. Funny enough, the next one's on March the 23rd, 2023, and then we have another one in October 2023 in central London. And um we find that these events attract British people who want to move to Portugal. So I am in a unique position, a bit like Jonathan, was just in California with Americans that want to move to Portugal. I spend a huge amount of my day talking to British people who want to move to Portugal. And um over 7,000 people have used our services so far, either come to the events or um joined our database. And the reasons why British people want to move to Portugal are there's three main ones. Uh, firstly, there's a long tradition of British people buying a second home in Portugal, long tradition, because two million Brits a year go to Portugal on holiday. As a result, many, many people love it and end up retiring there, moving there, bringing up their families there. So that market has remained constant. In the last four years, since Brexit, um, we've noticed an increasing demand from British people, younger families who want to move their entire families to Portugal, put their children in Portuguese school because the number of international schools in Portugal is very high, uh, where they do the international curriculum. And this is because the parents can't do remote working now. They can, as long as their jobs are well established or they run their own businesses, it is particularly possible now to uh bring your children up in Portugal, enjoy the Californian-style lifestyle, and commute back to your office in London or or wherever it is in the UK on a monthly basis, or set up a satellite office in Portugal. So we see a lot of that happening as well. And we also see um a lot of youngsters. Uh the digital nomad visas, which you two I know know a great deal about as well. Uh, the digital nomad visa now allows young, uh younger people who earn a certain amount of money per year and who work remotely. Doesn't matter where they work, it's always every front of their laptops. Uh, Portugal is attracting those in great numbers as well. And a lot of our visitors and database are very interested in that aspect. Plus, we have other people like British teachers, British tech, uh I don't know, experts, British coders, uh, everybody involved in developing software. They are well aware that there's lots of job opportunities in Portugal now, particularly in the Lisbon area, and um, they would rather work there than in London for obvious reasons. The quality of life surfing, etc. So there are lots of reasons why the British are moving to Portugal. It's not just the old uh second government retirees market now. We're seeing a much younger group wanting to move and wanting the information.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

I agree completely, and I think the Web Summit moving from Dublin many years ago uh was very wise, and it has spawned tremendous Silicon Valley, San Francisco interest by uh venture capitalists, startups. Uh there's also something else. It might be slightly different from England. I think uh some of these very successful entrepreneurs who actually range from 20s to 60s uh are perfectly comfortable exploring Portugal. And that might mean they might spend a week uh every few months, or it might mean they spend two months a year. And these are global people. Um, and they won't necessarily live here all year round, but they may open an office, they may buy a company, uh and I think we're very comfortable with that sort of uh global, you know, diversified approach.

SPEAKER_02 28:45

Yeah, that's a very good point. You guys in the raised quite a lot of reasons why people are choosing to move to Portugal, um, one of them being um the the digital uh nomads visa, and it's great that Portugal has this scheme. Um we will talk about that in a bit. But after giving all this, giving us all these reasons why people are moving here, what do you think is the next step when you think you made this decision? Even if I'm going to relocate for a couple of months because I want to be a digital nomad, where do I start? What do I need to research? What are the steps?

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Well, you join Red Bridge, obviously. Uh you need a community.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

So I made bridge, tick.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Uh you need a community. And I I say that uh jokingly, but it's true. You need a community. Uh everyone knows the foreigner makes the biggest mistake when he doesn't connect with this the wise locals.

SPEAKER_02 29:44

So, John, a community research, an exploration trip. Um, how about you, Joana? Do you, from your um experience with clients here when they decide to move to Portugal, do you think is there anything they should uh that they it's not that um obvious, but they should um look forward.

SPEAKER_04 30:04

Um there's I I'd say there's a set of three big concerns in relocation. Relocation requires some preparation, it's not something to be done uh just in one day. So first, there's a problem of the legitimacy of living in a different country. So you need to assess the visas. There are several options in Portugal, several motivations, you'll find the perfect fit. So I would say that's step number one to be able to live in the country, then assess tax impacts. Tax impacts are huge because you're not only changing your civil residence, but also your tax residence. So you'll start paying taxes in a different country. And if this is not assessed in due time, you can have a huge impact. And particularly if you are American, you have to you have exit taxes on the state level in the US, have the problem of double taxation because US citizens are taxed based on citizenship. So there's a lot to worry about before relocation. And then some practical aspects that are relevant. It's a concern, namely from the US, because it's a long trip. Then uh enrolling kids in school, converting driver's license. There's a lot to be done. Yeah. And importing of goods is also a concern.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

And and currency. Um the currency ranges dramatically. We've seen in the last few months. Uh, and there are experts in this area. So if you're if you're going to move a certain amount of currency, absolutely, that's a very good point.

SPEAKER_02 31:44

Yeah, yeah. How about you, Christina? Do you have any um other points that uh was not raised here?

SPEAKER_03 31:51

I I I fully endorse what Joanna and Jonathan have said. That in the British market, uh if we meet a family who are thinking of moving or somebody who's thinking about rooting their life, I always suggest they rent for a year before they buy, because it is a major move if you're really thinking about relocating stock and barrel. The second thing is, um, but if you're thinking of just trying it, or you're young, you're a young person thinking of going to live live there for six months, you know, it's less of a risk. It is a big risk to take a whole family over there, and you need to look at uh all the options. Uh, we always recommend, well, like Jonathan, I would say, make sure you come to a moving to Portugal show and listen to our seminars because you'll get a lot of very good information from our members uh at those events. Basically, we uh make sure we tell prospective movers to Portugal to look hard at their tax situation, uh, because you need to be uh very clear how you are going to handle your British tax situation and you're gonna make sure that you've the British Inland Revenue agree that you've left the UK and you are living permanently in Portugal. Uh, there are various uh concerns around that because if you are uh if you have some assets, you need to plan it properly before you move. And um I would uh add that uh look carefully at the properties and the sort of property you want. Be aware that you're gonna be living in this house year round, and uh you need to be clear whether it's uh well insulated the game's market I'm glad you forget that because for nine months of the year the houses are gorgeously warm because of the weather, but there is the winter, yes, September, which is a bit damper.

SPEAKER_02 33:37

And if you want, so I always recommend just interrupting you quickly. I'm sorry, but there's also the house deposit if you're looking to rent here first. So uh it's usually it's asked between four to six months of deposit. It varies, it all depends on the honor, but it's something to factor in this cost if you are looking to rent.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

Yeah, and I I'd add um myself, uh, this is a new experience for me just in the last year, and I'm prototyping uh Portugal, and I I started with hotels and and Airbnbs, and now I rent directly from a gentleman who was an Airbnb, and I have I'm renting his apartment this year for four months, and I'm arranging to rent it next year for six to seven months. Uh it helps if you speak Portuguese and and you can sort of get out of the Airbnb rut. Um, another thing people will be surprised that's wonderful about Portugal is once you get to October through most of March, the hotels often uh are quite reasonable. And so it's really easy to do an exploration trip. I stayed at a five-star hotel, you know, in December here, and the price was just remarkably reasonable, and that's a nice way to sort of dip your toe.

SPEAKER_01 35:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:07

Uh Christina, sorry I interrupted you, so you wouldn't want to feel like Oh, I I would agree entirely.

SPEAKER_03 35:16

I think you you need to particularly off-season, so from October till end of March, uh you can stay in Portugal very cheaply. If you if you uh you may have some good contact in Airbnb, but you can stay in a hotel at a very good value. You can also um do a lot of uh a lot of the hotels in Portugal are offer self-catering of one shape or another. Uh, there's an awful lot of those in the Algarve as well, which season, like Jonathan says, offer an amazing opportunity to actually be able to cater at home for yourself if you like, but also eat out because the Portuguese eat out a lot and cheap day day-to-day restaurants. And find your way around that way. If you're deciding where you want to live, it's crucial. It's a huge decision where you're going to buy a property. And you need to get to know a region pretty well, um, and see who like-minded people uh go along to a few networking. Meetup uh is a big website where lots of um regional meetups are organized all around the world, but particularly in in Portugal as well. And uh I think people underestimate how easy it is. You don't have to stay in a hotel, it's a lovely option, but you can also stay in a in an apart hotel where you have your own kitchen, and it's the best of both worlds in some ways because somebody cleans it.

SPEAKER_02 36:34

Um that was a very good tip. I I wish I had met you before I moved to Portugal. Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:41

Five-star hotels are okay to stay in for uh 110 euros, it's it's remarkable. I know a lot of Californians who have moved here or are are moving here, and I think uh all of us here know you have to be a bit careful about obras about construction. Yes, and so I think the biggest uh mistake a Californian or Brit might make is buying a house or an apartment and being told it's uh needs some obras, and then finding out that's two or three years of a nightmare. Uh personally, when I buy uh I won't buy Oberas. Uh and and you know, you don't know things like neighbors, and there could be a legal problem that unless you have a great Lisboa lawyer, you may be buying a lawsuit. Uh uh because neighbors have rights too. So these are why you prototype, why you stay in that five-star hotel or you stay in you know, renting for a while. So you're feel quite confident with your choice.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

That is a great advice, and I think so. Just to summarize here, because it's important, you guys didn't give me that list of the usual uh go to the embassy and see what you need in terms of visa, but also you know, the tax, the the community is very important, an exploration trip, come first, find out what's what's um this country all about, meet people, uh, sign up to the moving to Portugal on the 23rd of March, sign up to um Red Bridge, um talk to people, most importantly, I'd say also Facebook groups if you're on Facebook.

SPEAKER_00 38:23

Um underline something you said, which I think unfortunately sometimes we overlook, like uh comunidad, your community. So I'm not going to announce my community because I don't want too many people to move there, but I have my community, and my community are my friends and the lovely markets I go to where I have friends, and the you know, the coffee shop and everything. And until you do that research, you won't know the community. And I think you should pick your house or apartment as much on community, the human aspect, as the view or the supposed value of the property.

SPEAKER_02 39:05

Yeah, I agree with you. It's very important. I think there's also one thing, one element that you guys didn't mention, but that will be my contribution, thank you. Um, which is um to learn or try to learn some Portuguese beforehand. If you speak Spanish, you have a head start, but it's it's it's different. And once you learn the language, you're able to communicate with locals in a very different way. You're able to bond and make long-lasting relationships, which is really important when you're moving to a new country.

SPEAKER_00 39:38

I agree completely. And uh, the only problem I have sometimes is now I speak pretty good Portuguese, and I have to pretend I don't speak English because everyone wants to speak English.

SPEAKER_02 39:52

Yeah. Yeah, because that's the point. See, in Portugal, they we speak English really well, and um it's due to the uh the schooling system, the kids they learn here very young. My my daughter's six, I mean she's she's English, but she um they study like I never studied English in Brazil before, so it's it's great, it's a very good education system. So, anyway, so that will bring me to another question because you know we have a um list of things to ask and very limited time, so I have to move on. Um, I'd like to ask about um the cost of living in Portugal. Um, there is this myth, it's it's a myth and it's actually very wrongly targeted um in terms of advertising that Portugal is cheap because it's not cheap, firstly. Um and um and also it could be expensive for the logos, um, given the the salaries here and so on. Um, but if you compare to the cost of living of uh big cities in in the US and UK, um you could have a better deal here. Do you want to talk about it, Christina?

SPEAKER_03 41:09

Perhaps? Yeah, sure. I agree entirely. I mean, uh, proportionally speaking, Portugal for the Portuguese is not that cheap. If you compare the cost of food, the cost of mortgages with the typical Portuguese salary, uh it is it is um it is uh uh uh a difficult choice for Portuguese sometimes in terms of what their financial priorities are. But if you compare the cost of living in, let's say, London with uh living in Lisbon, for somebody used to paying London prices, Portugal does offer some real pockets of value. Uh things like services like having a cleaner or a housekeeper is very good value compared to the cost of that in the UK. Other things that are surprisingly cheaper, things like having your shoes repaired, having your clothes laundered, uh clothes all so things like that. That's much cheaper in Portugal. Um there are um other uh day-to-day eating out. Again, you've got to you've got to go to the more local restaurants, but eating out is incredibly good value compared to uh the the typical cost of a meal out here in the UK. In the UK, if you don't want to spend a fortune old food, you tend to end up in a chain restaurant like Nando's or something like that. But the Portuguese still have a really thriving tradition of good value local labour restaurants open every day, families cooking, and you go down there and for 10 euros have your big plate of baccaria or whatever it might be, and it's it's incredibly good value compared to the equivalent in the UK. Um, so there are certain uh there are certain pockets of value like that where um the the value is significant for sure. I don't know what Jonathan thinks in terms of comparing US prices in Portugal.

SPEAKER_00 42:59

You know, it's interesting. I think um for Californians uh the the cost of living is not even in the top three. I I I think it really is uh the culture, the climate, the geography, the people, the the rising tech ecosystem. It is great that it's not as exorbitantly expensive as, say, France or other countries. Uh I think it's largely a lifestyle choice. I think if you want to live in a more economical way here, it's quite possible. Um you can find, you know, your vegetables and and and your fruits and and your produce in certain places at a very reasonable price. Uh wine is very inexpensive and exorbitantly expensive, strangely. In California, so typically when I go to Matasca, it's two euros for a glass, and it's ridiculously 15 euros in California, which I now struggle with every time I go home. Uh but I I think it's largely about choices. For instance, if you don't have to live in Lisboa, you know, obviously you can buy an apartment or a house in a much less expensive zone. Uh one can use mass transit. I I take uh the combo, the little train.

SPEAKER_02 44:36

I'd say the quality of life is more affordable here. It's easier to have a good lifestyle.

SPEAKER_00 44:43

Exactly. Um and you can go out and you don't have to spend certain amounts to be with your friends for a dinner or drinks.

SPEAKER_02 44:51

And that brings us to the Portuguese um style of life, which is one of the uh elements that draw people to this country. Um, but still on the cost of living, which I think it's important, and I said that in the beginning, but I want to mention again um when you are factoring, you know, uh cost that goes monthly um as a family, I don't know, schools and uh transports and everything, the health service, health is a very important one. So there is a public health service here, and Joanna, can you explain how it works? Because I think it's important for our viewers to understand, you know, what is the SNS and what is subsidized and what's not.

SPEAKER_04 45:38

Okay, so the public uh the national health system in Portugal is mainly free. So there's some small uh rates you may have to pay in some situations, but it's free. So anyone living here, even uh someone that is doesn't have the permit granted yet, it's possible to enroll in the SNS. And even if you don't have anything, the SNS will take care of you. Worst case scenario, they will send the bill to your country in the end. So if you need medical attention in Portugal, you you can go to the public hospital. I would say that the public health culture in Portugal for Portuguese people is we use private suppliers in health because they it's easy for monitoring and the day-to-day routine, it's easier to book um with the doctor from the private system, and it's not that um it's it's affordable to have private health insurance in Portugal. So this is why most families use private health insurance on the day-to-day basis. But whenever we have something that's serious, a real concern, everyone goes to the public hospital because there's um they generate a lot of trust in their abilities, they are very good.

SPEAKER_00 47:02

Uh actually, uh Jisane, I think you you've met one of my colleagues, Nathan had lucky and he and his wife, they had their first baby here, uh right nearby, uh, you know, and the cost was virtually zero. Uh and this would have been extremely expensive in the US. And um I know my Portuguese partner, Hugo, they had some special huge, you know, almost an apartment at the hotel, and he sent me the bill, and I think it was uh 250 euros the total cost. Um so these are very attractive elements.

SPEAKER_03 47:44

I would add to that, Ghizanne, that uh uh the uh as backup, what a lot of our British movers do is they take out private health insurance in Portugal, uh which is interesting because um there are several chains of private hospitals in Portugal, HPA and a couple of others. And what they do is sell very good value insurance effectively, medical insurance, which ensures you can be treated in their hospitals. So it's slightly different from the but um it's a very popular option because it's very cost effective per month. But um, as Joanna and Jonathan were saying, the Portuguese medical system uh is more or less free at the point of contact. I think you do have to pay for certain things, small charges for um prescriptions and for uh appointments and things, but uh the big stuff, as they're saying, is all handled by the Portuguese medical system, giving birth, operations, etc. But for those people who want backup and the security of a private hospital chain behind them, you can easily insure yourselves in that way as well in Portugal. Uh, it's it's a thing that many uh British MOOCs do.

SPEAKER_02 48:56

I do it myself. I have a basic uh um health insurance that covers just you know the day-to-day when you need to see a dermatologist, and if I go for a general practitioner, it would take ages. Um, and then you pay 15 euros per consultation and then um a hospital for something um urgent, which happened actually in the past. Um, with my knee, had the meniscus tear and up in the um the A here, the emergency services, and she was great. In the end, I had to pay, and I only paid 12 euros. That's that's two coffees and kind of oh it's a move. Maybe one. If you wanted with a must be to have one other point, people forget.

SPEAKER_03 49:46

It's uh dentists are very good value in Portugal. Oh, good point, yeah. Uh we have some members of my chamber, uh, particularly the Algarve. There's a couple of dental practices in the Algarve who uh specialise in working for foreigners, as in doing full dental reconstructions, etc., at all of the highest possible European standards, um, but um at a fraction of what cosmetic dentistry costs in the UK. Because here in the UK, uh the national health dentists, the system is under enormous pressure. There aren't enough dentists who will operate under the national health now, and it's a great source of problems.

SPEAKER_02 50:25

But in Borge Hope, you can uh for a a very reasonable fee uh access very good quality dentistry and that's a good point because those are all costs that you you need to put in your um XL sheath when you're preparing your move. Um, and it's not only for uh um the perspective of family, it could be just yourself, for the young, um digital nomads, um you know, you could have a surfing accident, yeah. That's it. Yeah um good. So then we covered, I think we covered a lot, but I'd like to ask um about the education system in Portugal. Um, Joana, are you able to tell us a bit about um how the schools work here, um public and private?

SPEAKER_04 51:14

Yeah, it's more or less the same ideas in health. We have public schools, a huge network, and private schools. Um, public schools are very good, as Gisani was saying. Uh they teach English, there's a huge variety of uh I I understood this lately because of uh our contact with Brazilians that sometimes gymnastics is not something that uh is done in schools uh worldwide and in in Portugal is part of the curriculum curricula ever. So I think it's a very uh it's a very good curricula. And now we are watching a huge boom of international schools, not only in Lisboa, but across Odeira, Asauris. Yes, and it it's amazing because uh I think international schools are a great option in Portugal.

SPEAKER_00 52:07

And I would just add, I think um I know from my club, Red Bridge, that a huge number of Californians and Americans move here because they feel it's a beautiful place to bring up a family. And it's it's great to bring up a family because of the quality of the schools, because of things like I know so many people who they're youngsters, you know, are part of a surfing camp and and a part of the community. Uh it's it's very much uh this group of say 30 to 45 or so, it's a big shift.

SPEAKER_03 52:47

We are uh amazed. Uh watching here in the UK and visiting Portugal regularly, I'm amazed at the fast growth of international schools in Portugal. There are no there are um one of our chamber members, uh Globe Educate, owns uh four international schools in Portugal alone, out of a network of 38 in around the world, and that's just one operator. There are dozens of other international schools in Portugal, and um it's growing more all the time. I mean, there's a huge campus about to open in Cashcara in uh Carcovelos, I think. Uh uh it's uh it's really a an extraordinary growth area, plus the growth of the international students in Portugal, because many of Portugal's business schools, two or three of Portugal's business schools, are highly ranked in the Financial Times Business School Index, which is used as an international reference really for people looking at secondary education and business education, business degrees. And so I think Portugal's image as a European destination for education is far higher than you would expect.

SPEAKER_00 53:56

And the um the ranking of Portugal uh for generating top quality engineers is extremely high.

SPEAKER_02 54:04

Yes, that's true. I read that, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:06

Which is a major attraction for Silicon Valley um companies and startups.

SPEAKER_02 54:12

I'm glad that you brought up that point because that's basically my last question. But before I ask the last question, I just wanted to say that we have an international school guide um that we put together basically answering the demands of our clients. We had clients coming here and they wanted to have a list of schools, and then we had a list with five, and then 10 and then 20, and then suddenly we were like, okay, let's do a proper guide. So put it together and um we have it printed, but it's also available online on our website. Um free. Just go research, you will find every information that you need about um the international schools in Portugal. So now, because we have to finish, unfortunately, this this could um we could do a series on you know, moving to Portugal, one visas, one community, I mean to your community. Um, but now I want to touch briefly about work opportunities here. Um some people they're moving because they have some um um capital that they could do and leave for a while without working, but some they need to work or they have an idea to open a company. Um, and I'd like to hear from you guys what how's the the scenario here in some sort of um work opportunities? John, do you want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_00 55:35

Uh Californians are will prototype, so we're we're very uh we don't have this risk uh fear of risk. So most Californians will be able to do some digital nomading uh where they may work with a very reputable company and they're allowed for a period of time as much as you know a month or two months to explore. You know, the visas without even getting a new visa, it's 90, 180, 90 days out of 180. Um so most will research. And of course, for a Californian, it's gonna be much more attractive if you can be paid an American salary or approximately an American salary and live here. However, I'm increasingly finding some people who have done quite well and are are fine with finding a local position, uh, and they may still have, let's say, some consulting back to the US, so they can bridge the difference in that way.

SPEAKER_03 56:40

Uh, we see a different profile here from the UK. If I think about the people that I've talked to recently uh who are going to do some business in Portugal, mostly it's people with an existing business, uh, which is entirely portable. So they've already got a very well-established niche, it doesn't matter where they do it from. The second is uh British people who already have a successful business of some shape or form, an engineering business or an advertising business or something like that, and they want to start beginning to create a new life, maybe prior to retirement, or work a bit less, or they want to have a better quality of life. So they often begin to consider starting up a branch of their business or investing in a similar business in Portugal. We had a gentleman the other day, engineering business owner in the UK. He was looking for an engineering business in the in Portugal in which to invest, so that he had a reason to spend more time in Portugal. Similarly, we have a gentleman uh who's a a uh a UK expert in growing roses in the UK, huge supplier to the supermarkets in Portugal in the UK, and he had realized that actually now is the perfect moment, given the energy crisis in the UK and at the Netherlands, to switch the rose growing business, the actual growing of the stems, to Portugal, because the heat generates the energy to grow the flowers without having to pay for the heat. So he only grills a stem to send IOs. Yeah, well, the point being that you if you grow roses in Portugal, uh cost of roses. You can't transport the cost of growing roses in the UK or Holland now, where you have to heat the greenhouses and the heat costs so much more now because of the rising energy prices. So uh there are various businesses being made all over Europe on this basis. But those are the sort of businesses we see uh coming from the UK. Then again, um real estate is a big opportunity for uh British British uh business people in in Portugal. Uh we see a lot of um people already working in an established business in in Portugal, uh sorry, in the UK, but they are able to commute, so they spend two weeks a month in Portugal with their families, two weeks a month in London. We see a lot of that. Um we don't see so many. Uh we we see we hear and see quite a lot of British companies setting up back office systems in Lisbon, that's for sure, but like Jonathan's talking about. But we see a very wide range of reasons why people are going to work in Portugal and how they're going to do it. You know, being offered a job by a Portuguese company and relocating from the UK to Portugal is a relatively rare occurrence. We had a a teacher, a British teacher the other day came to see us because he'd been offered a job by a Portuguese international school, he was relocating, so that happens. Education is an area, real estate is an area to some extent, but that tends to be entrepreneurs, they set up their own businesses in in the Portuguese real estate sector. Uh uh, or you might be posted by your company, your British company, which has over a back office in in Lisbon, you might be sent from London to Lisbon or Porto or Brago to run the back office.

SPEAKER_00 59:57

I would add that um uh some time ago Portugal uh uh eliminated taxes for uh cryptography for the crypto currencies. I know some very major holders of crypto in California who who moved to Portugal. Um, even though the the prices have declined and so forth, they are still here. Uh they are building businesses with you know blockchain, which is part of the foundation. I think there's an extraordinary amount of uh something that's very hot right now, AI talents, uh, for this chat GPT. Um these people are already here, and once they're here, they'll tend to recruit and bring others. So even though the crypto boom is at least over for a while, there will still be more crypto and blockchain and AI people coming because there's a network here now. And as you probably know, last year there was an extraordinary number of conferences here. Um, and I was I spoke at a uh Amazon conference, you know, uh, but there have been a number of great conferences, it's a huge transformation the last few years that Lisbon is a destination for so many tech conferences, and I think it'll continue because it's just uh the place to be. It's you're not gonna have this conference so much in in Paris or Rome anymore.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

No, it's fascinating how rapidly this changed. And um, I think the Web Summit is a big, big culprit in a good way. Um of um yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:39

Yeah, and Web Summit, of course, is coming to Brazil as well, which I think will strengthen on both ends.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

Right. So it's good because you guys covered a wide range um, I wouldn't say work opportunities, but the the network that um of um of um yeah, the work that can be available here, either you starting up something or joining a um a company. Uh Joana, is there anything um that should be considered for people that are coming to Portugal then in terms of visas? Um if they but it's a digital nomad visa which could be an option. Do you want to talk briefly about digital nomad visa?

SPEAKER_04 1:02:26

Sure. So uh as I said before, we have a huge variety of bases for visas in Portugal, it's just really much more than you can imagine. We have a video about it. Yeah, yeah, we'll share one here. 7d2, D3, tech visas, uh retirees. We talk a lot about those major options, but we have several, and I mean several options. And the digital nomad is our brand new. I think it's it's the answer to the demand of people coming uh to Portugal through the D7, and it did make sense. Now we have the brand new one. The concern I think it's the same. Um, as soon as you um find that you have uh an eligible ground for a visa, it just the the requirements are all always the same. So you need a clean criminal criminal record, you need an address in Portugal, you need you need the survival money, which is minimum wage for the period of your first visa. You need health insurance, travel insurance, and as long as you make sure you have all of these, it's actually very easy to comply with the requirements and to obtain a visa.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:44

And it to add, you know, what's different about the nomad visa, which is actually attractive to all ages, I don't think there is an age limit at all on it, is that you just have to show um a moderate income. Uh whereas that the uh so you need to show approximately just under 3,000 euros a month for three months. Uh and you could even be a freelancer as long as as you can show this. So it's a for uh California is a very low barrier event. You don't have to have great savings or to have investments that are uh accruing the monthly, you could be in your 20s um and experiment.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:24

And you could be a family as well, because it's never been easier to relocate for a shorter period of time. Because let's be honest, you know, like upping sticks and move to a different country is a big decision. It's not an easy feat. So if you're able to do it for about a year, but you still have you know your kids enrolled in schools back in California or in the UK, um, you can test the waters, uh, see how it goes, and then if it goes well, you can stay, um, which I'm sure it will, but you never know.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:58

Yeah, and I I believe the the digital is one year, but it it can in some cases be extended.

unknown 1:05:03

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:04

The short stay, which is not exactly a residence visa, and you have the residence visa. Short stay is just for someone that wants to stay here up to a year. If then you want to convert into a true residence, you need to apply for the regular digital nomad visa.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:19

Guys, we are way over our time limit here, um, which was expected because we were talking about very, very interesting subjects. And we're in Portugal. And we in Portugal, it's the lifestyle. Um, and what I'd like to I think some uh takeaways from this um uh episode is that you have to plan ahead, speak to specialists. Um, I'm not sailing here, but today's the reason why I'm speaking to John and I'm speaking to Christina because you guys um are specialists in in this subject. So go and have a look. Um, if you're based in the UK, go um to Moving to Portugal um website. Um if you are based in in California and USA in general, go to Red Bridge and such uh Joel's LinkedIn page.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:12

Just go to Jonathan Lip.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:13

Just Joe Jonathan.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:14

Not the movie producer, yeah. Me.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:17

And um, and the same goes for tax and so on. We are and we at Global Citizen Solutions um be able to help you. And if we are not able to help, we will find someone that can help. And um, and that's it. So I hope you enjoyed this episode. I did like it a lot. So um, what else? And that's it. Thank you very much. Obrigado.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:40

See you soon, Christina.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:41

See you soon. Thanks.