SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey dear Global Citizens, welcome back to the Global Talks, your podcast dedicated to uncovering the joys and challenges of Global Citizens. I am your host, Gisele Campos, and today we have two special guests with us to talk about the allure of Portugal for families. First up is Chicha Stern, the head of the Martinal Family Hotel concept in Portugal and the founder of the international school United Lisbon. She's an expert in creating family-friendly environments and has first-hand experience in moving to Portugal. Also joining us is Patricia Casaburi, managing director of Global Citizen Solutions. It's a consultancy firm specialized in investment, migration, and relocation services. And she's also the managing director of Goldcrest Real Estate, a bias agency located in Portugal. So, today we will be exploring Portugal for families, whilst delving into the challenges and the benefits of moving, living, and raising a family in this beautiful country. So welcome, Chitra and Patricia. Great to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 1:12

How are you doing today? Yeah, very well.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

Also great, fantastic. Portugal is a great country. Good weather is good today. Yeah. As it is most of the time.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

Yes, very pleasant, mild, um, plenty of sunshine. So, yeah, all the good things for family. Um, and I thought before we start talking about um, you know, because we want to hear all about your your experiences as a businesswoman here, but as well as your your also the challenges in um moving um on your own or with a family, and um and you know, that really good tip that you could share with our viewers. But before that, I think it would be good to share some stats. So there are lots of expats in Portugal, as you know. Some people like to call expats or migrants, but they are foreigners. Um an interesting uh looked at the census of uh 2021, and the number of foreign residents in Portugal increased by 40% in 10 years. So that was between the 2011 and 2021 census, amounting to over 550,000 people. This is data from the foreign border's office, which is called um the acronomous CEF in Portuguese. Um, and of the growth of um of the foreign population residing in Portugal, it just um confirmed the trend of uh of this country as a welcoming place to um international uh citizens that want to start a life or want to carry on with their life or invest and perhaps move here in the future. Um I'm gonna ask your opinion about all of that, but I want to give more stats because they're very interesting here. So um the Algarve and the metropolitan, Lisbon metropolitan area have the highest proportion of foreign citizens. Anyway, so in 2011 it was 11.6% in the Algarve and 7.2% in Lisbon in 2021, 14.7% in the Algarve, and uh 8.9% in Lisbon. Um and the Martinell Hotel in the Algarve, so I want you uh to tell us more about it. Um but between the two censuses of 2011-2021, the native population of Portugal decreased by 2.1%. So the if it had not been for the country's foreign population, this decrease would have been even more severe. So um what do you think? Do you think the statistics really highlight uh Portugal welcoming um oriented uh destination for families here?

SPEAKER_01 4:09

Yes, um so I mean, uh uh my husband and I actually moved to Portugal in 2001. So we've been here um 22 years, so we've really seen uh the evolution of you know some of the stuff that you're talking about. Um and I would say that um it's certainly a very family-friendly country, but it's friendly to people in general. You know, I um I am originally from Singapore uh of Indian um heritage and uh moved to London um in 1989, met a Swiss gentleman at work uh and you know, got married to him. Uh he's from Zurich, Roman, and we moved to Portugal in 2001 and started a business and a family. We've had four kids here since um um uh and started, you know, a couple of different businesses. And I would say that um uh it's it's one of the most uh open, tolerant liberal societies you know I've ever seen. And uh people are generally welcoming of foreigners, people from different backgrounds and different um beliefs. Um so this is definitely one of the reasons. I mean, there's a whole host of other reasons. You know, I even did a TEDx talk on this why Portugal is trending a few years ago, and it's really um uh there there's several other factors, the weather, um, you know, uh its location, geographical location, you know, between the Americas and um the Middle East, um, easy access um, you know, through uh Lisbon Faro and Porto airports. The airports have access to various countries, um, etc. I mean, there's a you know whole host of different uh programs that Portugal introduced as well, uh, which put Portugal on the map or helped put Portugal on the map for tourism, even. You know, the investment that went into uh promoting the Golden Visa uh in in other countries and um, you know, uh the non-habitual residence program, this brought um more visitors to Portugal. I think it really helped increase the awareness of Portugal in addition to all the good work that um Torisional de Portugal, the tourism authorities have done. Um but the bottom line, you know, I always end with with the story of why people are moving to Portugal and whether Portugal is friendly to foreigners. Um yes, you know, it's it's not just the environment, it's not just the infrastructure, uh geographical location, but the people are really welcoming, and that makes a huge difference. Uh, because I say we are not robots, uh, but we're humans, so we you know, we need to uh uh be happy in the place where we invest. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 6:59

And then Chitra, you said you moved here in 2001. Yes. So there was 10 years before the census of 2011. So you basically saw the shift happening, yeah?

SPEAKER_01 7:11

Yes, and I I would say, I mean, I haven't looked at the 2001 census, uh, but after this meeting, uh I'm going to look at it um to see, you know, uh to look at what shifts have happened in that decade. Um, so yes, I've seen a huge transformation um in the number of um other people, uh, you know, foreigners living in in Portugal. I mean, obviously in the Algarve, which is where we first moved to, um, you know, there were many British people already who knew of the Algarve and had moved to the Algarve. Um, then the Irish, you know, with the Oceanico developments, they were a real estate developer. Um, they really did a lot of PR for um uh in in Ireland um for the real estate sales. And you know, uh Ryanair uh made um Portugal one of its um hubs. So uh tremendous uh shift, uh tremendous shifts happened in the last 20 uh 20 years, um certainly, but between 01 and 11 you might find that the shift was I mean maybe even bigger, you know. Definitely, yeah. Um possible the visa came in 2012. By the end of 2012, exactly. Um and bearing in mind that the global financial crisis happened between 2008 um and really, I mean, by the time Portugal was coming out of it, it was 2014-15. So, you know, 2011's figures um might have uh, you know, uh I don't know how it affected, it would be interesting to see 2001-11 and 2021. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 8:48

Okay, so then you mentioned um London, and I believe Patricia also um had a similar trajectory, but came from the other side of the world, Brazil, and then London for a while, and and then Portugal. So, do you want to share with us a bit about your um how did you end up here? Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Wow, and uh different motives, different moves, completely different outset and and you know how we went about that. Um I moved to London in 2001 as well. I did 2001 um to study and had really good friends living there, always had the European connection and thought, why not? Um I had already been to London a couple of times before, and I remember the first time I went to London, I said one day I'm gonna live here. And I was very young at the time. So it was yeah, it felt like a huge accomplishment. And um, it was definitely um a really great experience. We were there for 20 years. Um in this 20 years, we saw something in London that I think it mirrors very much so what we are seeing uh in Portugal now. Um, because obviously the UK has this, it was always established place for tourism between London and I mean Liverpool, I guess, or Scotland, you know, people were very familiar of going to the UK to visit. Um, but I think the kind of and also traditionally uh the UK always had migrants from the Commonwealth countries, but we saw around the end of the 90s, early 2000s, there was like a boom of you know foreigners from all over the world um coming to London. And and it's changed. Even like obviously now London is one of the biggest kind of uh culinary cities uh in the world, but it it wasn't like that, even in you know the early 2000s, the same thing. And we've seen we've seen the good and the bad, um, the real estate market that completely you know boomed in London over the years. When I moved there, like hindsight is a you know wonderful thing. You couldn't you know buy apartments in Hampstead for like you know 80,000. And so and if you think about it, we're talking like 20 years, so a lot has happened in in this time frame. Um, so London has given me a lot of opportunities. You know, my husband had my child there, started a company, uh, worked in different industries before. Um and then so the decision to come to Portugal was very different when I moved to London. It was very well structured, very uh planned. You know, we started investing in Portugal beforehand. Um, we already had some friends here. But even from like when we started investing here, which was maybe 2014, 15, to us moving here in 2019, um the whole ecosystem has been changing so much, so rapidly. And and like just to pick it up on I don't have enough data on the census, so it's it's more uh of a feeling. But what we see here is like in the you know, number of different restaurants and cuisines that you can you know access now, or Lisbon is a naturally beautiful city. Um, as the geography in the Algarve, or even Porto is Stunny. Um and the sky here, something the light in Lisbon is one of the most special in the world that I yeah, at least that I've been to. Um but it was, you know, despite that, it was a run-down city. Where now you you walk around everywhere in Portugal and and it's thriving, you know. Um obviously with that it always comes the good and the bad. Um, but overall, I think it's uh amazing. It's uh and it's like Chitra was saying, it's a very welcoming place. And but we definitely see this uh in the foreigners do mingle. People that come in here, um, they want to get involved. So it's not just um a pure investment. Even the clients that we have that at the moment they're doing a financial investment. Um most of them, I would say in our case, maybe 95% of our clients, if they cannot move right now, um, the intention is to one day to be able to spend real time here. And obviously, this is super beneficial um because you do manage to kind of fully integrate and and and also have a positive impact on the economy or you know, people spending, which is different um than when you have tourists. So of course, yeah. For the economy is the relation is different, and for the longevity, uh it's sustainability, um all of it. So yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

That's a very good point because um recently we've done a couple of uh lives about international schools in Portugal. You want stats, I'll give you uh give you one. So there are um um basically on our guide, international school guide, we have 51 schools in Portugal, international, but there are more schools. It was just that we had more, we were very um the criteria was that the diploma, the certificate would be um uh it's not only teaching in English or another language, but would have an international certificate. Anyway, so there are actually over 60 uh international schools all over the country and the islands. But when we did the slides, what we realized is that um when we spoke to headmasters and parents as well, um they all wanted to be part of the community. So they chose a school that helps them to integrate in the local community. They didn't want to be that sort of expert that just mingled with the group of Brits or the group of Americans or the French. They wanted to learn about the culture, they want to learn the language, they want to be part of the community. So, yeah, that's a very good point when you say that your clients also, when they come to Global Citizens Delicious, they want to uh be part of uh of it and uh bring benefits also together.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah, and I would say even in the international schools, I mean we founded an international school that opened um three years ago in September 2020. And um 20% of our school is Portuguese, um, you know, 80% international. So I think um having known, you know, uh uh gotten to know some of the international schools in the Algarve uh as well as in Lisbon, I would say this is um the case in other international schools too. There's always a good mix of um um students, nationalities, cultures. We've got over 51 nationalities represented in our school community, which is amazing. And Portugal actually makes it quite easy, um, I think. Um it's a small country, you know, small um Lisbon is a small city. I I always say it it fits the Goldilocks principle, you know, it's just right. It's not too big, it's not too small, it's just right. It's a modern European city and yet authentic um in nature. That's what Patricia Patricia was saying earlier, it's um um uh you know, beautiful city, authentic city. But it's true, just to touch upon that, um what you said earlier, um, you know, we'll come back to how what you're saying, that it was very run down. And actually, without the uh investments that came in through the foreign direct investment, I was actually um on the foreign direct investment task force that the government set up, the Portuguese Prime Minister set up, um for three years between 2017 and 2020. And the objective was to bring even more foreign direct investment into the country because we're very aware here um in Portugal, I think, of the impact of investment. I mean, first of all, every Portuguese person knows what fundos comunitarios are, you know, the um EU structural funds that went into boosting the economy in big ways through infrastructure funds and social development funds. But the FDI, that foreign direct investment that comes in through investment uh of real estate or um in companies is very much valued. And specifically in Lisbon, we saw the transformation of uh by Chichiado, Bayraalto, Presbrial, Fusio, all these areas which were totally run down, and not just run down due to a lack of paint. I mean, there weren't people living in this area at all. The number of registered local residents was only um, you know, in the tens, if I'm not mistaken, um, because you know, um uh buildings were totally run down and uninhabitable. Um, so the the uh investment that's come through is truly, I mean, it helped create part of the success of tourism for Lisbon today, I would say. So that's you know very much valued. Apologies for going back to that. I just wanted to comment on that.

SPEAKER_00 18:23

And it's true, and jobs creations and new businesses because you know when you have b buildings sitting empty, it's very hard to have a retail, uh, you know, um retail in um setting. So now you have if you open you know a bakery or a little boutique, you do have people to come and and and spend. So it's all very correlated. Um obviously now undergoing a lot there's a lot of open discussions because you know, uh with the foreign investment coming in, um the padding changes as well. We're managing to keep the authenticity of the city um because they are also very proud and have a very good uh good senses of you know the heritage that they want to maintain. So the rehabilitations, the renovations are done really well, and and all the facades uh are kept and the public museums and a lot of new museums as well coming up that have been completely restored to their former glories. There's more uh a bigger art scene. So it's uh it's all very positive. And but most importantly, um I think it's been done um, you know, in the course because it really started in maybe '98 with the funds from European with the with the expo coming here and Papua Nassauing.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yes, so 1986, um uh Portugal joined the EU. And of course, the uh infrastructure funds took a bit longer to come in, but 1998, um, in 1989 they decided that um to propose Lisbon as a as a destination for uh the World Expo and to completely regenerate um this particular area of Lisbon, was uh which was, you know, uh really, really in a bad state um for the Expo 98. And indeed, um the European Union funds came in to help build the Vashko the Gama Bridge, um, 17-kilometer bridge across the River Tejo, um, as well as uh regenerate the whole of Park of the Zasoy uh Park of Nations, or Eshpo, as the Portuguese call it, on the eastern side of Lisbon. And it's uh truly uh uh a global example of what can be done uh with uh an expo site, a world expo site. It's truly a successful um urban regeneration project. Um so yes, I mean And that's where you have the school as well. That's the area we have, the international school, and uh our latest Martinal actually. There's four Martinal hotels and resorts in Portugal. Um, and uh, you know, one of them is in the Parkes LaSorge area and just opened it. Um and the school, yes, it opened in September 2020, the United Lisbon International School.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

It's a beautiful area, and I think the regeneration that was done there was done very cleverly because it's not um, you know, there's a stark contrast between the old areas of Lisbon and uh even the newish with uh you know, like the Azure de Belang with all the trees, yeah, it's all the green. But then you have park additional source, which is a new Lisbon, a new Lisbon area in a bit like uh, I don't know, there's some areas it reminds me about Miami, a bit of uh Paddington area in London, actually as well. King's Cross in London kind of blends itself really well with the rest of the town.

SPEAKER_01 21:51

It does. Actually, I mean I often compare it to sort of the canary wharf of Lisbon, but it's right in the heart of town. Uh, you could say Paddington. For sure, King's Cross area, huge regeneration project successful. It's on a smaller scale here. Battery City Park, uh, you know, in in New York. Um, but again, I mean, Lisbon has a particular combination of factors that make it so interesting because you know the airport is very close by to the city. Yeah, you know, um, or in the city, yeah, I should say, actually. Um, and um uh we're at the river all all around Lisbon because you know, if you look at the rectangular shape of Lisbon, you've got the river Tejo, the Tagus River going all the way around it. And um so uh, you know, it's beautiful. And the riverside location of Parkes de Soy is is an amazing uh new part of Lisbon. I mean, I love it because it's the perfect, perfect 15-minute city. I've been, you know, I I get to walk everywhere. Yeah, you know. Um there's a uh fantastic uh private hospital. There's a chain of um uh three um chains of private hospitals, successful private hospitals in in Portugal. One of them is KUF, CUF, and there's a great uh uh KUF hospital in Practasoisch in Park of Nations, uh, and other locations in in Lisbon. There is the Hospitage Particular do Algarve, HPA, uh, which is the Algarve, it started in the Algarve uh with a Maderain's doctor entrepreneur, and um they're prime primarily with their clinics and hospitals in the Algarve, but they've opened one in Madeira as well, and there's Joaquin Chavez Saoud as well. But um there's a coup in Partais de Soyge, it's literally uh, you know, a five to ten minute walk from where I live, which is in the Martinell uh Practas de Soyge, Martinell Orient, as it's called, Martinel-Lisbon-Orient. Um fantastic uh shopping center, but also lots of small shops and restaurants, and there's a casino uh there. Um there's um Altis Arena is there, where which is the main concert venue uh in Lisbon or the largest. It's also where a Web Summit happens, Fera International de Lisboa, you know, it's the equivalent of the Javits uh conference centre here, um, or the O2 in London. So um very well thought through and and executed. I mean, I should say it wasn't just an idea on a piece of paper. So, you know, kudos to the Portuguese government and successive Portuguese governments for seeing that through. Definitely. That's why you chose that place. Yes, yeah. So I I'm originally Singaporean, you know, and a Londoner, I'm a British. Yeah, I have the little bit of Singapore, bad. Singapore and a Londoner, you know, as well, 12 years in London and a Brit. Um and I'm Swiss uh through marriage as well now. So this uh sort of the organization of what has happened there is really very interesting. Yeah, there's pure pedestrianized areas, then semi-pedestrianized, and then different um roads to handle the different levels of traffic, and yeah, the the look it's got uh fantastic um the Gare d'Orient. So public transport is excellent uh because it's a uh bus station as well as underground station and train station. Um it's close to all the circular roads and the highways to connect north to south as well as around Lisbon. So no, I love it. I you know I love organization and I love um when good urban planning comes through. I mean, quite honestly, it's uh it's really great.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah, but it's also quite refreshing that they haven't stopped um uh Espo Path business because it's been extended. So to just revitalize the the river Modvila in the area there. There's new project, yeah. So it's extended, getting a little bit more into in-house and a little bit uh inward as well. So there's a lot of old warehouses, a beat, and so this whole city is very exciting to be here. Like we have not from here, and then but you just feel it's quite uh tangible, I guess. Uh the change and and the investments.

SPEAKER_02 26:13

I think you also mentioned, I'm sorry, we just need to stir now a bit the conversation because uh this is really exciting and you you have a lot to say. So you mentioned healthcare, and which is something very important. I don't want to miss on that. Um, because it's good for families. Um it tends to be one of their main concerns, especially when they come from the US. Um, so Patricia, do you want to talk about the uh healthcare system in Portugal? Uh, because it's a private one, but there's also a public service. So, do you want to give a basic explanation before? Sorry, I just realized this podcast we film, but we also have the recorded version that goes on Spotify. So some of our listeners that are not seeing us might be wondering what was the sound of water, you know, throwing through. Uh, that was me uh giving some water to chit travel. Sorry. Just to explain why out of the blue there was a kind of a bit of a meditation background going on. Uh but yeah, so healthcare, Patricia.

SPEAKER_00 27:20

Okay, I would say um the system here, like most so most people, um when they're looking to relocate, depending on what stage in life they are, um, they'll have slightly different concerns. Families will likely look at school first and then decide where they're going to live and and or where to live if you you know have all the time in the world. But like a common thread, no matter like if you are like a digital nomad or you know, retiree or planning to have babies or whatever, it's looking at the healthcare. It doesn't matter which nationality you are. Um, obviously, Americans are always in for a very pleasant surprise because the kind of premiums that you pay in private insurance here have absolutely no comparison. So I would say uh Portugal, much like the UK, have a very um sturdy national health system, uh equally um overly uh subscribed, I guess. Or there's a lot of pressure, right, for public services. So anyone that comes to Portugal in a resident visa of some sort will have fully full access to uh uh the national uh health system, um as they would uh you know to public to schooling as well and other so they can have the same rights as a Portuguese person apart from voting, essentially. So I think this is really important because a very um broad and welcoming country, which just goes on to reinforce everything that we have been saying. So what I would say is some of the visas pending, like I obviously I have a little bit of the immigration uh mind always do everything that I'm talking about. So when you're looking for immigration setting, depending on the visa, you do require to have health insurance. But once you're full-time resident here, then you can switch and you wouldn't need one. What I would say is um historically as well, much like the UK, you get the same quality of doctors in the kind of um national services you do in private practices. Uh, a lot of them do both. So they would work for like a state hospital as they would for a private one. Um the main difference, um, I would say, and the advantage of having private health insurance um is to do when when you need a consultant or if you want to see a specialist fairly quickly and that kind of you know, just do a test. Because otherwise, obviously, if it's an emergency, that's what most people say. Like if you have a uh a small child and you know they fall, you you'll most likely if you take them to the yeah, because they never get sick during the day, right? It's always in the middle of the night at the weekend or something like that, you will be seen and you will get good service. But if you just you know want to do a regular pediatrician check or something, um, then it's a lot harder to get like the family uh doctor to kind of point it towards a consultant's appointment. Yeah. So in that sense, it's uh really good. Um there's a range of you know healthcare plans. Um you can have like co-participation, I think they call it, that you would have kind of heavily subsidized by the private insurance. Sometimes you have fully COVID for the insurance, and there's providers that are truly international providers that um a lot of the families will be um already familiar with, like I don't know, Cygna and some of the big ones. Um that especially if you're not living here full-time, then you might want to like have like a global uh healthcare. And this tend to come with a higher price tag. But if you're looking for like local solutions, some of the hospital groups um that Chitra was mentioning, they have their own insurance. They have their own insurances. Okay. Most of the banks will have solutions as well that they offer. And you'll be looking, obviously, it's a little bit um age-driven, the kind of the premiums you'll be paying. But for like a like a family with small children, you'll probably be looking, let's say a family of four, something like less than 200 euros a month for you know, uh, prices. Um, there's a number of good services now. Um for um we've just met recently this uh firm that was referred by one of our clients, actually, and they have a very sharp service uh with everyone that works there, uh their health practitioners, international health practitioners, either American or Brit or whatever. So they will do all these screening calls. Um, and then they will arrange an appointment with a doctor that speaks English and will be already fully aware with your case. So it's a fully like it's a very well-developed and affordable um healthcare. And obviously, you could rely, like I said, especially for emergencies on the national health system, but even for vaccinations and things, it's a very well-oiled uh machine. So we've got friends that had babies here and they had it um didn't have it private and had a good experience. Yeah, but I would say, you know, uh it's so affordable that it's probably just yeah, it's it's definitely worth it. But there's an a lot of solutions.

SPEAKER_02 32:59

And I think you guys are putting together healthcare guides. Yes, it's coming out in July. It's available freely to with basically all this information that you just said, but also telephone numbers and uh websites.

SPEAKER_00 33:13

Yeah, certainly it should be oh in there, it's coming out in July, I think. And um but yeah, the idea is just to to provide the information so people can make the you know, they feel equipped to make decisions, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 33:27

Yeah. I I I would totally agree with um everything you've said, Patricia. So I was one of those kids, I mean I had three of my kids privately, but one of them in uh public hospital in in um Barlavento in Portimao, actually in the Algar.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

There's a story in there.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

There's a story there, absolutely, and everything went absolutely fine. Um, and that was in the first decade of it. Yeah, exactly when I was having kids. And um private health care, you know, I I I have the case study of even bringing my parents um here and um getting them private health care um uh here. And you actually compare it to so many other uh places, it's so much more affordable because it's managed health care in Portugal. That's one of the things um, you know, uh for the Americans to understand is because it's managed health care, uh the insurance premiums and the um consultations um uh or even just going into the hospital for um, you know, anything is much uh more affordable than than back home in the US. Um and that's a you know very important thing for the Americans to understand and uh in in you know, even with cases where, you know, for whatever reason, if you haven't had uh if you've got pre-existing conditions and you haven't um um had insurance before, you can actually still get a quote and and you know, get cover, which is amazing here. And I would give the advice definitely, I mean, I look forward to seeing your um uh healthcare guide um contact, you know, a couple of brokers as well to get different um quotes and then go with the one that suits you. Uh you know, choose uh uh something that covers the hospitals close to where you're living, where you decided to live. Uh that's a good tip, yeah. Sorry, there's also lots of clinics, you know, there's lots of clinics as well, private clinics. Private clinics, yeah, where yes, the first um level of care um here in Portugal, you have, you know, you have the family doctor in um in the public system, of course, medicina uh you know, sorry, uh Doutor de Familia or now I'm médico de familiar, médico de família de Schwapa, Medico de Familia, um Austrian Medicina, it's family medicine was my mind. So you have the medical de familia in the public system, but you also in you know you'll have your sort of private clinician, you know, either internist or um you know, family doctor, yeah. So there's a whole range of clinics as well. It's not just the private hospitals.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Hey, and a lot of the times now since COVID, you can talk to your private physician online, which is amazing. I've been missing a lot of the online medicine. And uh it works really well. You you do a quick zoom and so for like you know, minor minor things. So this is something that is become fully developed.

SPEAKER_02 36:32

Very good for that urinary tract infection, you just get it all sorted on the phone and get the antibiotics bill, and yeah. Um, so we talked about healthcare and with touched um schools as well. But it would be good to know because we were talking about the benefits of uh and you know how this country is very family-oriented and so on, and all the benefits that the society brings to uh the foreigner here. We even talk about uh um the urban landscape. Uh let's touch on the challenges. What are the challenges that families could encounter here when they decide to move to Portugal?

SPEAKER_01 37:12

So I'd just like to say, I mean, what people might think our typical challenges aren't challenges here. English is widely spoken. I mean, for the for the Americans, you know. Um what I found that people uh here actually make an effort, you know, even if they don't speak English well, they make a huge effort to uh make foreigners feel uh uh welcome. Um and you know, other typical challenges of getting around, you've got great guides, especially you know, I came here 22 years ago, but since then you've got a lot of interesting information online that uh helps you do your due diligence so the challenges are reduced. Um so I would say a challenge that still exists is um some of the other things that you might think are quite easy, you know, uh you have to dedicate a bit more time to bureaucracy. So, you know, if you want to open a bank account, I mean you need to have some some things ready. I'm sure you have some guides on that. But you know, um here in Portugal, you don't exist unless you get your tax number sorted out first. So get your tax number sorted out with the help of your lawyer or you know, um relocation agent, real estate agent, wherever it is, everyone's awfully helpful. So um I it's an English expression. I then realized later awfully helpful sounds with very helpful. Yeah. So um uh and then you know, just uh make sure that you have everything ready to open your uh get your bank account opened. Obviously, you need a bank account if you're gonna uh you know buy a property. So usually all that stuff gets sorted out if you're buying a property. But if you're moving here, you might need to make sure without a property, you know, you might need to uh uh uh sort of get some special attention for those things together sorted out. Um other challenges, Patricia, let you talk and then I'll think about some of the other challenges to move.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Yeah, I think it's pretty much in line to what you were saying. Is uh little things once you settled, like you know, switching your driver's license back causes a lot of anxiety. Um you know, and but Portugal has uh uh one of our partners that he says the bureaucracy malls are the city. Lost, yeah. You go there and you get a little number and you could probably sort it, um, get it sorted in one day. But yeah, these are the sorts of things that that I I would guess. Um take a bit longer, don't you find? I mean, yeah, and sometimes you can't resolve it in the first trip on a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of how.

SPEAKER_01 39:52

So I I think um that's the only thing to say, but you will get it sorted uh eventually because people will help you through. I mean, you know, buying buying a property uh as well, you know, the paperwork. I think one of the things is the culture. This is what I found, you know. Um people um uh because they're used to it, but they're not giving you a a checklist of things to say. These are the things you need to bring. Uh sometimes it's oh, there's one more thing, you know, and this it's sort of drip feeding the information and be prepared for it. I'm not, you know, I've been I originally came for five years, I'm still here. So, you know, I I love the country too much, and we're still investing here, and I love the people too much. So, um, but as a foreigner coming here for the first time, this is something you just have to be prepared for. Okay. There are specific things in other countries that make you know our challenges. As long as you're aware of these things and you get the appropriate help, you'll get it sorted. That's it.

SPEAKER_02 40:50

So you do your plural research, talk to specialists, um, work with agents and yeah, yeah. Because see, we like paper here. There's paper stamps, and there's mysteries to be solved.

SPEAKER_00 41:05

I don't know what the banks do. Well, the paper, you know, and even like little blank sheets have to be in the print. How they're very precise about everything. But once you get into the swing of it and you kind of learn to navigate, that's it. Um, and I think a lot of people come here, especially from the US or the UK, and they have their busy lives and they say they're moving here because they want to change the pace. Um but in equally then you know, you come across a different pace. Because, you know, here it's not uncommon for you to wait for three days to get a response to an email. And and I know it's trust me, like it's one of the things that I put on our like service level with my team. I find it like, you know, no way people cannot waste and things like that. But the easier you accept certain things that you are in a different speed, um the you know, it all becomes a little bit uh it's not that it's not different, it's more it just it it kind of you manage to balance your level of anxiety because I guess you know, like I don't know, in the UK or the US to change your driver's license, you submit things online and and it suddenly just materializes in and it's not not always works the same way here.

SPEAKER_02 42:26

And once you expect out that I think it makes a little bit easier, I think it reminds me of a sign that I saw in a very um very quainty bar in uh Thailand, and they said uh if your expectations are too high, just lower your expectations. But it was great because they only saw two cocktails there, and they had like two chairs and uh yeah, not so that I got into there because that goes against a little bit of everything that I believe, right?

SPEAKER_00 42:52

And that's also what I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_01 42:54

I mean, I I think here let me just say that what I've seen in the 20 years I've been here, and that's why you know it's interesting to have this 22-year uh view as well, things have moved advanced so much. Okay. Um, Portugal has really engaged in um you know digitalizing a lot of things and you know, make uh uh they call it simplex, you know, it's it's a different word, you know. I know it has different, but here uh it was the word that they used to simplify, okay, simplify procedures. So the poor I'll say it again. The Portuguese government engaged in um um you know, over many years simplifying uh bureaucratic procedures and digitizing procedures. So that you know, is it's an ongoing thing, and things, you know, I always have to compare sort of five year samples, you know, and things are getting better. Um, and uh what you will find is again, this culture of the email responses. What I find is people want to reply when they have all the answers. In England or in the UK or America, in the US, um, people get back immediately to say, I'll look into it, right? Within seconds. But some of the answers might still take some time.

SPEAKER_02 44:08

That's such a good point. It is true. It is.

SPEAKER_01 44:10

So you don't get that immediate response. You know, people find it ridiculous here to say, why should I just come back and say, you know, thank you, or exactly? You know, um, they want to have all the answers. And so this difference in cultural expectations, I would say. That's very good. And I I would say, I mean, you know, um, in any country you might find people who are um not working well, but here people are very hardworking in in general, they really want to, you know, do the best to enable you to have a good time. And personalizing um the issue helps people, you know. So that's why I always say don't just write emails or write WhatsApps because we're in a generation now, everything is just online. Yeah, try to meet people in order to get your things done. Yeah, because the culture here is very much about face-to-face, you know, and uh I think this might be a shock for the very younger generation that likes to send just emails and WhatsApps to resolve things. Actually, I think um, because the culture here has a lot to do with um, yeah, you know, family comes first, actually. Yes, I would say above many other things. Um people are very connected to their um um, you know, aunts and uncles and primus and prima, you know, uh cousins and uh grandparents. So that social um uh engagement is still very important, I think, for people. Definitely. Uh so kind of that's another tip. That's another tip for for anyone who's um you know thinking of moving here. Um try to meet the people you're doing business with or that you're trying to, you know, sort things out. It helps.

SPEAKER_02 45:47

Uh Chitra, what um so tell me everything that you said, you know, in terms of service and someone, it it stems from um your background in the hotel industry. And I do um I went to the famil to Martinal in Sagares. I actually spent Christmas there. Um I think two years ago, it was in the middle of a pandemic, and um, but we were not on lockdown, by the way. Yeah, um yeah, it wasn't on lockdown at the time. But I did, I did have a great time, and I had never been to um a family uh fully catered uh environment that I felt comfortable together with my child, that I was someone thought of my needs as well. It wasn't only about the kids. The kid was very happy, everything was nice and sleek, but I also had like a really good restaurant around the corner, cocktail bars, and so how how do you think this um Portugal brought uh the your family hotel concept to life? Is there something in the culture that we've got? Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 46:55

Absolutely. So I mean we started having kids in Portugal because we felt that it was much nicer to have you know start having our family here. You know, things are easier here, you know, children, you can take your children most places. Uh, but what was difficult was to go on holiday with your children. Uh I'm not saying particularly uh just in Portugal, but you know, we realized that you know, having had kids later, that you couldn't go to your favorite, you know, hotels anymore with your children. I'm actually not a hotelier uh by full background. I'm an electronic engineer, chartered accountant, MBA prior to coming to Portugal. But um sort of, you know, and you know, strategic thinking uh, you know, for a business, we saw a gap uh once we started having children. So a gap in the market to actually um uh do a hotel uh uh brand that looks after children, but uh moving away from the club concept with mass experiences uh that gives parents sophisticated time um uh you know and uh food and you know enjoyment as well. So focusing on the different members of the family. Now the Portugal specific thing, of course, you know, finding um uh uh people who work in the hotel industry. Um when we started, I mean, now there's a lot of challenges because Portugal has an aging declining population, and uh uh uh over the last 22 years, Portugal definitely uh moved up in uh tertiary education levels, you know. So the economic conundrum that you face when you have a more educated society, um, you know, what happens uh uh you know for sort of you know labor needs. Um but at that time there were uh when we opened the hotel was 2010, actually, so just one year before your census. Um from CEF census, from the census you referred to. Um you know, we had uh well educated because Portuguese government had actually focused on um people going into hotel schools. They started more hotel schools in Portugal because they wanted to be ready for the growth of hotels. They'd been investing in um hotels, you know, attracting investors, starting new hotels, opening hotels, five-star hotels. They wanted to move their industry just from the old world of Benz and um Alberigas into higher and higher quality hotels. And um, I mean, it was amazing because I got to know about the Bent, uh, the uh National Strategic Plan for Tourism uh strategy. So uh Plano Uh Estrategica Nacional de Turismo, Bent. And as part of that, they they really focused on investing in hotel schools and preparing kids to join hotels. So we found we started working with the hotel schools and we found um good people to work in the industry who were family-oriented as well. Now, the only difference was we as the Martinell brand had to really focus on getting some of the formality out and get helping people, helping staff think about uh being more empathetic, putting themselves in the shoes of uh families. And you know, I I I have a motto which is helping the mother have her cappuccino with a foam still on it. Okay, that's a good one. Yeah. And that's the motto. And then a million things around that, you know, have to happen to enable her to have that cappuccino with a foam still on it. It has to do with the kids' corners, it has to do with the empathy of the staff, looking at you, realizing that you know the child is is not having a good time and coming to say, where is everything all right? Can I help you? And you know, etc. etc. We have baby concierge service to make the travel more um uh smooth for the mother, father too, but you know, I focus on the mother because mothers are more anxious in general, I think. Um and and um yeah, including the menu, you know, uh not just having the typical burgers, pizzas, and spaghetti bolognese, but to also have freshly pureeed food for different age groups. So a lot of what we put into the brand was actually empathy, I would say. And um, you know, uh in Portugal, you know, it's been fantastic actually opening um hotels. We we opened five hotels, actually. Um uh uh one of them we actually sold uh last year. Um it was an offer we couldn't refuse, and you know, um uh we now have four. But I would say we have found some amazing um people in Portugal well trained um uh to be with us in the brand. Right now, our team is getting I al I've always believed in diversity. So we always had that push to have, you know, uh, you know, uh Germans, uh French, you know, diversity is is a strength, you know, it strengthens the team in order to, you know, um uh uh provide uh excellent five-star quality service to different nationalities. So, you know, Brazilians and Indians, and but now, right now, with the challenges we have, aging, declining population, more educated in engineering and you know, other fields, that means we as a society need more immigration across different um um uh you know uh age brackets brackets and technical skills and and so on. And right now, I would say, um, you know, uh as uh uh the president of the camera, Mayor Carlos Moeders said at our opening at our inauguration ceremony, they're all Lisbouetas. You know, whatever nationalities they are, this is a question for Ceph and you know, border, uh, you know, the borders to sort out, but they're all Lisbonites who are working in the industry, yeah, uh in the in the hotel industry. So long answer, but you know, all these things I think um really have helped us um uh make Portugal a good destination for Martinel. But one more thing which we have not mentioned at all throughout this whole um talk, the safety and security in Portugal. Oh, definitely. Which I think is a super interesting and important point for raising families and to have a family-friendly hotel uh or even four, you know. Um Portugal is one of the safest places I know in the world. And um it also has to do with um the sort of neighborhood watch approach. You know, people are concerned if they see someone in trouble, they're there to help people.

SPEAKER_02 53:31

And you know, they just need the local CCTV. Um literally just come home and park in the car, all the old ladies will open the window.

SPEAKER_01 53:40

Yes, who's coming home, right? Who's coming out? Yeah. So I think this is this is one of the safest societies. Um, and long may it last. Um, and I think um this is one of the important draws um for the foreigners who are moving to Portugal, uh, from Brazil, from America, you know, many other places in the world. Definitely security is a high point here. And you know, kids can can walk home uh or you know, yeah at the freedom transport home. They have freedom here. Um, and I think this uh makes it an amazing place uh for families to come and settle down.

SPEAKER_02 54:20

Is that also something that you see uh from your clients when they come to Global Citizen Solutions, they um security that's what you can offer?

SPEAKER_00 54:31

The industry that we are in, it's uh and it's it's fairly impressive. It's quite it's an immediate, like the needle moves so quickly. We kind of not thrive, but it's something that people actively seek alternatives in terms of residency or nationality, there's a backup plan when things are not going so well domestically. So if there's a mass shooting in a school in the US, it's kind of overnight. We see it again because you know, if people have been thinking about it and something like this happens, just makes you question everything again. So, yes, so it's the same thing. Yeah, people will definitely uh safety, um, security, stable politics, and everything else plays a huge, you know, um part on the decision making of families or of all. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:27

Yeah, I think uh also to to come on holiday. I mean, you know, um, I know we have the little sort of tram 28, beware of the pickpockets. Obviously, we all have to be careful not to get pickpocketed in in uh you know crowded places. Um, but I think uh it's wonderful to come on holiday here. I mean, yesterday I was even uh in the Algarve um on business, you know, for one night uh with my husband, and I lived in the Algarve for 15 years, um, and and now uh nearly eight years uh in Lisbon, but in the Lisbon area. And um it's it's wonderful. I mean, you know, you can't beat it for a holiday and you can't beat it to to actually as a place to live, you know. Uh it's the combination of things you have. Yeah. And um, it's wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 56:14

So healthcare, schools, um, English, well spoken everywhere, even at public services, you call and then you have the option to speak uh with someone in English, which I find amazing. We talked about business, it's a business environment, it's right for uh startups, for companies. So we're talking for family about families, but some of this bearing to my want to start a business here. Um, we talk about the tech environment as well, which is thriving. We talk about uh urban uh revitalization of some areas here. Um I think we covered everything that I had on my script, and Chicha bought the security, which is great. Um now one more thing to say about the security.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

Sorry, just if you could go on. You know, uh Portugal, uh part of why Portugal is such a safe uh place is actually it's quite high on the global peace index. Yeah. Um, and that has to do with the society, how they view you know um uh things. And when it c even when it comes to sort of um demonstrations, which have to happen in democracy, especially when things are not going um well, um, you know, the peaceful demonstrations. You know, so I think you know, there's two aspects, you know, the safety and security, but it that there's this point about the the uh being high on the global peace index, which says a lot about Portuguese society. So I think it's an important thing to to bring up.

SPEAKER_02 57:41

I'll bring up something very anecdotal that I saw yesterday on the Facebook group. Um it's um um foreign moms in in Lisbon, and then it was a post from um an American mother very worried about um secondhand smoke in Portugal, secondhand smoke in Portugal.

SPEAKER_01 58:03

Um even though it's when you're smoking, uh yeah, go on. When someone's smoking and you're inhaling it, that's secondhand smoke, you're not smoking.

SPEAKER_02 58:12

And the amount of American parents that went underneath her poster say are much more worried about secondhand bullets. And they were all like security is amazing, and um obviously there was um a bit of a it's Europe, right? So they smoke a lot in France, they smoke a lot in Italy, in Spain, in Portugal, and but there are laws being implemented so that people are not uh smoking in uh esplanadas, which is like the outdoor verandas here with covered uh tops. Um but yeah, there will be a bit more smoke here, but you can always walk away. But I think it would be good for our viewers to have like a checklist of things that you topics that you think um someone that is now researching, thinking, I'm moving to Portugal, or I will invest in Portugal because I might move there at some point in my life, or I just want to go more often to that country. Which are the topics that they need to start researching now?

SPEAKER_01 59:16

So, I mean, from my perspective, it depends on what age you are, whether you're coming here as a family or just as a couple or individually, whether you're a digital nomad or whether you're starting a business. So the checklist differs. But I I would say um certainly, um, you know, for generally, if you're going to uh buy a property, um visit first to see whether, you know, check out the different areas. Um, because I think it's important that you're happy in the place you choose to buy a property and the place you're going to be living. Um and as a family, uh I think the school is a pretty international school. I mean, great public schools, of course, but if your children have already been raised in an English-speaking environment to plug into the Portuguese system just like that, if uh, you know, it's possible up to a certain age, but you know, for the older children, uh, you'll you'll need to take them to an international school. So check out the international schools, you know, uh uh meet the teachers, check out the group behind um the school as well. Um, and uh, you know, uh try to really, I would say you're gonna find a good lawyer to to make the transaction, obviously. But do try to um, if you don't have that help already from the real estate agent or um, you know, your your lawyer, um, a relocation agent because make things easier for yourself to move your things, you know, because um some of the hassles of moving um can be saved. Yeah if you know. Um, you know, we try to help all our buyers um uh as Martinal. Um, you know, we have uh a great team and we have concierge services, but um, you know, I would say um it should be hassle-free because it's possible to be hassle-free. And and look into, I mean, you know, how are you going to get around? Transport or car, do you need to own a car? Um, because, you know, in from moving from America, you might think that you'd need a car for everything. It's not the case in uh certain parts. I mean, certainly in Lisbon. Public transport is is fantastic. Um, you've got uh, okay, I mean, there's definitely room for improvement, more lines, you know, in the metro, but they're working on it. Um, Uber is extremely easy and cheap uh to use here compared to London, for example. Um, you know, getting from you know, practis and soy to even the Metadoro of uh Nossa Senora uh of uh the monte, Nossa Senora the Monte. Um, you know, six, seven euros if there's no traffic, you know. So I I think um these are the the the things that you know you might that are very different here compared to the US. Good food is widely available, you know, um uh and you have of course you have more expensive restaurants, but you also have very accessible restaurants here with high quality uh food, which is quite different to the US, um, I think, you know, access to food.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

These are my sort of checklist that so it was um the location, the school, uh transport, um, but that's kind of also links to location. How about you, Patricia? Visa is very important, like it's number one.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:33

Yeah, the in the preparation, but there's always a visa uh uh or a way of people willing to move to Portugal or even uh other places in Europe. Um another big consideration um is taxes. Obviously, if Americans, yeah, for instance, they are always going to will always have to pay federal taxes, but there's things that you can do uh when planning your you know state exit tax, there's things that you can do to facilitate that. Um I mean, yes, but uh come over if you can over and there are things that need to face it, yeah. Because um I think a place is also a feeling. Um I totally agree. You can find the most beautiful house, but and it might be a perfectly you know nice neighborhood for me, but it may not be for you because your point of reference is is different. I don't know, like so obviously uh during COVID we we helped a lot of clients and we did the best that we could with technology and videos and and you know and doing walkabouts uh for clients, and we always brutally honest in situations, clients being here or not, we're always gonna say the good, the bad, and and and the ugly, because um most of our clients will be in a relationship with them for you know five, six, seven years. So for us it's really important uh that they feel happy and confident their purchase. So even you know, with a rental, because if you're committing to a lease or whatever, um but yes, if at some point they they can come over, it it makes it all a little bit uh easier for us.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:19

And just to clarify one one thing about the the Golden Lisa, um it's ended, yes, in its current format. But if if someone wants to buy a property and move here, you can. Okay. It's not like some countries where you you as a foreigner can't buy uh a property and move to the country. Because that that has to be clarified. And in in in certain countries you can't do that. Yeah. Whereas in Portugal, uh as a foreigner, you can buy a property and move in, and then you organize your resident permit, that's it. Um, you know, which is uh a possibility. The golden visa was just different. Yes, you you didn't need to come and live here.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:58

Uh so I think this is something uh, you know, that uh um yeah, it would be important to to transmit.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:07

Um, yeah, if the desire is to move to Portugal, there there's a range of uh visas. Um and uh yeah, and as you said, she mentioned digital nomads, that is also the D7 visa. It's all that uh Patricia can speak away better than me, but we have to do another podcast episode just for that. I want to also add language classes because I think it you can get a head start if you learn a bit of Portuguese uh before you move here, or even before your visit, uh, even though everyone will switch and speak to English too because they want to practice.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:45

I think it's very nice to be able to speak a few words of Portuguese. I mean, uh what is interesting about having French helped me a lot, uh learning Portuguese, obviously. Um, and uh people are so encouraging. I mean, all I had to say initially was, Bom dia como está, ah senhor já fala muito bem Portuguese, and they're very people are immediately, you know, um um encouraging you. The only problem you have is because so many people speak English, uh good English, you know, your your Portuguese, I always feel my Portuguese is not as good as uh the the English spoken by Portuguese, so I always say, okay, let's just speak in English. But, you know, uh uh it's it's wonderful for people who are uh prepared. Yeah, I think you can really uh uh uh you know have the encouragement from Portuguese people to speak in Portuguese.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:31

Right. I'd also say to join Facebook groups, and I've I've seen how it helps a lot when you're doing your search, you're still not sure about where to go, which school, which area, and then you connect to people that have already done that and they're there, and then you can check all the information that you get from your agents.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

Yeah, but I also uh another thing that, and we've seen some clients that do that very successfully, is um, yeah, I don't know, if you're like an accountant in the US, try to connect with the local body here, and then you might get to you know network with uh people in the same position. And even if your intention is not to you're just coming to retire or whatever, um it it's good because you you kind of opening because obviously for families a bit of an all-brainer because the school is a community on the huge parent community group in our school too, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:24

It's a lot of people, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:25

It makes life a lot easier to connect and meet new families, and and but if you're not coming for that, then this you need to seek those types of connections.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:35

And I think there are clubs here as well. I'm also on the board of the American Club of Lisbon. Um, you know, and uh it's it's also part of the American Club. Yes, so you know, I think being a member, uh, you know, you get to do lots of different kinds of networking events, uh, and you uh are able to meet so many other people, and the membership has grown a lot, uh, not just with Americans, but you know, people from um uh other nationalities and Portuguese people too. So um seek out the different clubs, you know. Each um there's the Dutch Chamber of Commerce, there's other chambers of commerce that where you can really um uh meet other people, you know, go to their events, the Irish business um communities work, businesses network. Um uh I would say yeah, a multitude of opportunities to network and get to know other people.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:29

Wow, amazing. Thank you. That was great. So I hope all of you got a very good um understanding of uh Portugal for families. And if they need to speak to anyone, uh any of our guests here, they're available. Um, and you will see on the comments there. We will put the contact uh details for um your respective companies, and uh and that's it. Thank you very much. I hope you enjoyed it, and I'll see you next time.