Gizane Campos 0:03

Right, hello or welcome to our podcast and um the Big Global Podcast or Global Talks, it's a podcast that explores the fascinating world of investment migration. I'm your host, Shazani, and um today we have a powerhouse panel joining us to delve into the evolution of investment migration over the years. Um, if you are seeing us from our YouTube page, I'd like to tell you that we also on Spotify and other main podcast platforms. And if you're listening to us, you might want to check our YouTube page as well, um, where this episode will be uploaded onto our um channel. So I'd like to introduce briefly our guests here. We have Bruno Lequier, um the co-founder and chief exec of uh the Investment Migration Council. Um we also have joining us Patricia Casabori, CEO, and Joana Mendonza, head of legal at Global Citizen Solutions. And um, so together, this guys will bring a wealth of experience and insights into the industry. I'm delighted to have you here, Bruno and Joanne and Patricia as well. So before we dive into the state, the current state of investment migration, um let's set the stage with a bit of history, okay? So I will ask Bruno to first come to us and uh speak to our viewers or our listeners and tell us a bit about you and your role at the IMC. And after that, you can give us a bit of uh a historical overview of uh investment migration. Is that okay, Bruno?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah, sure. Thank you very much. Um, so the Investment Migration Council uh or IMC is the uh essentially the worldwide association for investment migration. Uh, what we do is uh we bring together the leading stakeholders in the field uh and we provide a voice for the sector of migration. Uh, we also set a standard on a global level uh and interact with other professional associations, but also with governments and international organizations in relation to investor migration, which can also be citizenship by investment uh or also residency by investment. Uh and then in terms of the public, we try and help improve public understanding of the issues which are faced by clients, but also governments uh in this area. Um we work hard to promote education and high professional standards uh amongst uh our members, which now number uh just over 450 from uh 53 different countries speaking 73 different languages. Um, in terms of the funding, uh we are funded by membership fees, donations, uh, and income generated by initiatives such as events, education, training, uh, and applications. Uh, we're based in Geneva, Switzerland, and we have offices in New York, London, Dubai, Hong Kong, and the Cayman Islands.

Gizane Campos 3:26

Wow, so 450 members and uh in 53 different countries must be uh take a lot of uh um organization for you guys to you know be able to manage all this um uh board. So I know um Global Citizen Solutions are also members of the IMC and we will talk to them soon. But uh before we delve into um citizenship by investment and um and you know the role of the IMC as well, um I think it would be good to rewind the clock and um try to um bring an overview of the history of investment migration. Um I might be wrong, I don't know. I did a bit of uh uh research myself here. I hope not, um, because you know, I'd like to say that I am a very good researcher. Um I believe that the first uh citizenship by investment program came about in 1984 by Sunkitz and Nevis.

SPEAKER_01 4:32

Yeah, I mean I think the first thing to mention the the viewers or your listeners is that investment uh migration is a form of legal migration, uh, which is used by over 80 sovereign estates globally. It's essentially not a new concept. It's been around uh probably since the uh the Roman era, uh, where the Roman Empire was essentially built uh on citizenship by investment. So tradespeople uh and workers and shipbuilders uh would work for the Roman state and in return uh would be granted citizens of Rome. And that's how the Roman Empire managed to uh conquer uh two-thirds of uh of the world. Uh and then the same with the British Empire as well. Um citizenship by investment was bequeathed by and uh to uh a number of tradespeople, uh Indians, for example. Um kind of sort of fell by the wayside, um uh and then it came around again in the early 80s, and you're quite right, imagine 84 was the first modern incarnation of citizenship by investment where there was a properly formed legal framework uh established by the uh Caribbean island of St. Kitts and uh and Levis. Um so that's probably the oldest modern day um citizenship by investment program uh that is known. Uh and then if we fast forward a little bit to uh 2008, of course, we'll remember the uh global financial crisis, which hit Europe particularly hard. Um, and governments uh were looking for ways to attract uh new investments uh into uh into the country. Um it was either that or increased taxes. Uh increasing taxes was not really an option, uh I think it's fair to say for many governments. Um what they did is they looked at residency programs, and then we saw uh a flurry of new investment programs come onto the market. Cyprus, Spain, Greece, Portugal, countries that are peripheral to the EU, uh, members of the EU, but hit particularly hard uh by the global uh financial crisis. Uh and since then uh we see openings and closing uh of programs on a regular basis.

Gizane Campos 6:58

Okay, and then uh Bruno, when was the need to regulate uh to have uh um an organization like the IMC to start regulating and setting standards in the industry? When when did it start to um when did the industry start showing uh the need to have an organization like yours?

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Um for the most part, the investment migration um is it's very pioneering uh because essentially it's not that regulated directly. Certain elements of investment migration are regulated uh by the European Union, by the US as well, uh particularly when it comes to source of funds, anti-money laundering legislations, uh know your customer uh legislation, uh, all these things that you know Patricia and Helker colleague can talk about. Uh but we identified back in 2014 that there wasn't uh a global organization which was essentially bringing together the access academics, governments, regulators, uh, but also the stakeholders uh that are involved in investment migration. Um so you know, you don't really much have an issue uh with those regulated uh professions. But you know, it's also open to you know many others uh to provide advisory uh on citizenship and residency by investment. These people are not necessarily trained professionals. Uh so I would always be weary uh and cautious if I you know advising members of the public and listeners and of this podcast is to only work with uh professionals that are members um of the IMC, such as Global Citizen Solutions, um, that are also underpinned by strong legal foundations uh within their business. Uh, and I essentially regulated rather than working with somebody who isn't a member of the IMC and potentially isn't regulated.

Gizane Campos 8:55

Okay, that's a very good point. And thank you, Bruno, for giving us this um very thorough overview of um investment migration, going all the way back to the Roman period and uh to um the more modern uh incarnation, as you rightly point out, of uh citizenship by investment programs. Um and um and yeah, so now I'd like to ask Patricia, since we talked about the um the industry, how it all started, and the the need to set up the industry standards. Um now I'd like to touch up on the um the economical and perhaps the geopolitical factors that influence uh the demand for investment migration programs.

Patricia Casaburi 9:41

Certainly. I mean, it varies hugely uh depending on the the country that the candidate or the person seeking to invest or to move um is uh originally from. I think a common thread is definitely having the right to up and move if you need, is the famous or the infamous um plan B. So uh, and then obviously people then some are in different situations, so some really like looking for a better um lifestyle for their family, um, some just more security, better health care, um, simply mobility. Um the reasons obviously if you're born in some countries that present more challenging realities, then probably a combination of all of those. Um but we are seeing in modern times um that people that seek investment migration, they are not approaching this um in a transactional way. It is really um a way to embrace a new kind of global community. Um, and that might be because they are unhappy with their domestic policy uh or just looking for better, you know, wealth planning. They did quite well and they just tried to look somewhere else, or they just want their families to be exposed to a new culture, um, new setting. I mean, it really, really varies. But I think it's very important um to kind of emphasize that what drives people it is really like uh a desire to join something bigger, uh in a kind of tangible and but also broader way, um, so more conceptual even.

Gizane Campos 11:43

Great. Um, can you also um tell us a bit about your very briefly about your join in uh citizenship by investment, uh sorry in investment migration and um how it all started?

Patricia Casaburi 11:58

Yeah, sure. I mean, I I was uh lucky enough that when I moved uh from uh Brazil to the UK, um I actually had uh well I have an European passport. Um my family is Italian, so obviously I didn't have to go through a lot of um loops to be able to settle in Europe. At that time, um, the UK was still part of the EU, so it's a fairly easy transition. Um but you know, I had a lot of friends that had a different situation and high-skilled people that were there um studying and then wanting to stay, a lot of people um they had a lot of capacity and desire to stay. So obviously, um that opens up your horizons for different situations of people that are in different spots. I came in into this industry maybe about eight, officially eight years ago, uh, but unofficially, um probably about 10 to 11 years. Okay. So yeah.

Gizane Campos 13:06

Okay, so we got a good overview here. So I'd like to say let's set um our uh podcast today in two phases. So one, the first one, we talked about the history, we talked about uh the importance of uh um a uh council such as the IMC. Um, we talked about the desires and needs, the factors that drive people to um demand uh for um investment migration programs. I think um now let's move into a new stage now, which is the uh the policy uh that with the current policy that we have with regards to investment migration and the recent changes. I've been uh studying a lot about uh you know the latest um IMC council meetings and so on, and uh there's always a um the focus on uh legitimization of um um of investment migration. Yeah. We know that uh uh in in terms when we talk about Europe, uh there isn't really a very comprehensive uh response uh regarding policy. So I would like to drop this question like a bomb for you pick up if you want to, any of you. Um what does Europe want in terms of um policy making regarding investment migration?

SPEAKER_01 14:28

What decision you think will be made? It's a very good question. What does Europe want and you know what decisions will be made uh as we move ahead? Um unfortunately that's actually quite difficult uh to say uh at this stage. Uh immigration is a very political issue, um, and we must remember that there's nearly 50% of the global population going to the polls in 2024. So immigration policy will alternately make headlines more than ever this year, which will result, of course, in further general public uh discussions. We know that there are elections in the EU, so the uh Europeans um will go to the polls in May uh to choose the makeup of a new Brussels uh parliament uh and set a mandate for the next four years. The USA will go to the polls and 1.4 billion people will vote in India. Uh we definitely know from the previous uh election in the US, for example, um, that has seen a surge in demand from US customers. Whatever the outcome of that election might be, you can predict that 2024 will see a surge uh in customers uh seeking residency or citizenship uh by investment uh solutions. Now, in regards to back to Europe, let's remember that nationality is a sovereign state issue, which is something that new member states uh and others outside of the EU have continued to vigorously uh defend, uh, as they are doing uh in the case of Malta uh and the European Union, where the European Union has taken Malta uh to the European courts. Uh but there are other forces at play for sure. Um, the EU has been good at negotiating with prospective EU members uh using EU accession funds, uh, as especially as a carrot on a stick to bully sovereign states. So they don't introduce uh CBI pathways. Um I've seen the US and the UK uh also ganging out on the Caribbean in mid-uh 2023 regarding their citizenship by investment programs, and there were eventual uh concessions made on both sides, uh, which eventually recognized that uh citizenship by investment uh is very much a lifeline for the economies of the East Caribbean in particular, which contribute to uh UN sustainable development goals. So, what does the world want and what does Europe want uh in terms of migration? Well, the jury's all out. Um we just don't know. Uh migration is a fact of life. There are 200 million displaced people uh around the world, uh, and as humans, we will continue to want uh a better life for ourselves, a better education for our children, and better health care for our elderly parents. If you can't get that where you're living, uh then you are motivated uh to move to another country that matches your needs.

Gizane Campos 17:45

Thank you, Bruno. That was really good. I was just writing down your girl sentence, migration is part of our lives, which is true. And uh that will certainly resonate with our uh 7,000 plus um subscribers. Um, but I'd like to also bounce back this question to Patricia Ojoana.

Patricia Casaburi 18:05

I mean, I I agree with Bruno trying to kind of dissect, and he's very uh competent answer, and I'm gonna try to have a go. Um it's become uh part of the political agenda. It's a very um complicated um argument that we can't really simplify because the feelings of you know the government um and citizens of of different countries with different problems, um they they see immigration as a very emotional um aspect, either being that economic or investment migration, you know, whatever reason people are here of this, they're seeking asylum, it doesn't really matter. Um but if you are in a country and your own situation is not comfortable, if life as you knew it is not quite the same, and it's hard to make an appointment to see a doctor or to enroll your kid at school, if you have a perception that to rent a house is too expensive because there's too many people coming. Um in a very you know, it is easy to scapegoat um immigration. And I think it doesn't matter what kind of migration, to be fair. And I think some people profit that with cheap political arguments um to that point, because it it kind of breaches into this very emotional feeling and people. And what I think you know we should do, and the kind of people that I talk to, clients, and and we also participate in some kind of um more philanthropic types of you know programs that we you know help people that that just want to bring that came from different backgrounds and they're trying to get a place in this new community that they've picked. I don't know what we find is that they bring so much more and there's a lot of um wrong impressions that need to be corrected. You know, there is uh immigration through the times always brings, you know, talent, diversity, uh that free capital, let's face it, with the investment migration. And you know, in a number of benefits, employment. Um so I think it's important to have uh IMC and firms have this forum to have not a positive spin, but try to to kind of um change the narrative or show we have in Europe in particular, let's focus in Europe a little bit, and you touched a little in the Caribbean, which is very reliant on the GDP. Some of these countries are very reliant on those types of programs. But just look in Europe, aging population, shortage of workers, and again, and you know, even though like a lot of the countries are in a much healthier position than they were 10 years ago uh when these programs first came about, uh there's still lots to be done for economies um to decentralize, to attract new industries, startup, tech, you know, whatever that is. So it is still a very, very positive to have this influx of people. That's kind of how I see it.

Gizane Campos 21:39

That's a good point. Do you also do you also think that the um the emotional um discourse around um immigration is detrimental towards effective policies?

SPEAKER_00 21:52

Maybe. Um so I I think I'm not sure. Going back to the previous questions, I'm not sure if Europe Knows uh what it wants, to be honest. I I don't think they do, because there are lots of conflictive uh conflicting interests and um with migrations we deal with lots of misconceptions for it, not only for investment migration. So I think that's a problem. And at the same time, there's this general concern of foreign shopping with migration, where uh everyone seems to think that whoever is my is relocating from one country to another is only for its own benefit, and that's not exactly true. So I think Europe needs to address each this issue um globally, not only as an asylum problem or an investment problem. This is a huge phenomenon. Because most of all, I believe Europe, for example, wants to remain a safe space, that's for sure. Uh so that's one of the concerns that at the same time Europe wants to be a safe harbor for everyone, and at the same time and also wants to increase its economy and maintain as a very strong economy. So it's very hard to make sure everything uh happens at the same time, being a safe harbor and maintaining safety and having a strong economy. So, in the end, I think it all comes down to the problem of sovereignty versus the community, because these countries agreed to join this community and work together towards a better place. When you look into the specific countries, they all have different conceptions on citizenship and migration. So it seems like something that has not been properly discussed along the years. So I think these policies, um even if they are more inflexible, they probably won't help until we start uh debating the issue about we are together as a community, but how much can we decide on our citizenship and this specific identity of the country and the problem that some countries work with use solely and some with you sanguinis? We are not um in sintony on this subject.

Gizane Campos 24:30

Okay, okay, that's a very good point. I want to uh also bring up um and connecting to what you just said, um a point that Bruno made about the um about Malta that is the theme of um you know self-determination for countries. Um so what does each country perceive as nationality? What extent should the EU um influence nationality laws of its members? Um Bruno, do you wanna do you want to say a few words about that?

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Well, yeah, I'm I I'm absolutely clear on that. Uh Brussels and the literacy framework that operates in Brussels, uh, which is really the political uh arm, which is the European Parliament, and then the civil service arm, which is the European Commission, uh, they absolutely should not be interfering in uh a sovereign state's uh right to decide who becomes a national of that country and who doesn't become a national of that country. We've been unequivocally uh communicating this point to Brussels for the last seven years, uh to the you know, the various uh functions uh within Brussels. Uh and you know I will hammer it hope that this is a national sovereign state issue, and it has nothing to do uh with Brussels.

Patricia Casaburi 25:51

And and to that point, I I couldn't agree with you more. Um, and what we see, you know, they're doing with Malta, I agree with it's clearly unacceptable, and and it's not a purpose that the EU is created to have this level of interference. But the EU is going one step or too many steps, you know, into third national countries, what they're trying to do with the Caribbean countries. And I kind of just a little bit kind of see, even though I completely disagree, why they would try to have a better say on you know how European countries accept new nationals and new residents, because there might be um with the Schengen zone, and might be, you know, if you get a Maltese nationality, you can go and live anywhere in Germany or whatever. I can kind of see, although I 100% disagree, but I I the controls that they're trying to impose in other countries that they can actually bully, it's completely unacceptable, you know. And I think they go about the the wrong way uh because it's always trying to curb, you know, if they went with a with a speech that European or to you know other countries uh like the Caribbean Islands on a view of transparency, um you know, standardized due diligence that is acceptable for any nation in the world, or things, positive um ways of looking and regulating borders for you know safety and security, that would be one thing. But that's not you know what they're doing. They hide their demands, you know, behind those types of oh, you know, they're all criminals or or it's unacceptable. And let's be clear someone that is getting a um Caribbean passport, the maximum that they can do is visit Europe without having to nothing else. They can't, you know, come and and yeah. So I don't know, I find it um that we should, and and then it's great the IMC has a seat at the table, um, because I'm sure you know the members and and and a lot of people in the world, like it's shocking that like we said 200 million people displaced, would all uh appreciate you know a safer world, yet um a word where countries can decide who they welcome and what serves their their nation um in terms of development, um whatever reason they want to attract migration.

Gizane Campos 28:33

Okay, okay. That's all very good. I just want to um connect with another question that I had here, but it's totally go it's in line with what Patricia just said. Um you you mentioned control. So we've got the the threat to the Caribbean um CBIs, right? What do the Caribbean um CBIs should be doing so that they can be allowed the Schengen access?

SPEAKER_01 29:02

Yeah, and I mean first I'd just like to backtrack a little bit and talk uh a little bit about the the benefits, uh, just briefly. There are two sets of benefits essentially with investment migration. There are the benefits to host countries and wider society, and then there are benefits to individuals, which are two actors at play here. Um, and it'll be clearer why I'm saying that as I get to answer your question. So host countries benefit not only from the establishment uh of new businesses, uh, they also have uh an inflow of highly skilled uh individuals, which could potentially plug uh a skills gap in the country, uh, but also uh they benefit from financial contributions to society and to culture. So for many host countries, um such as those in the Caribbean, it's a critical funding program for key government activities, which include disaster relief and social programs. So there are many, many benefits uh to governments, countries, and wider society uh with investment migration. And then, of course, um as uh Patricia mentioned, there are the benefits to individuals, job opportunities for their children, greater mobility, better education, and people see themselves as uh part of a global uh community uh in which migration uh is essentially sustainable uh and quite mutually uh beneficial. Now, what is there a threat from the EU to the Caribbean? Um there is a little bit of a threat. Uh countries need to address um the questions that they get from uh from you know bodies uh at the Commission uh and engage with parliamentary groups uh within the the European Parliament, but also with the the US government, um Caribbean countries, as all countries with investment migration programmes, whether they be a residency pathway uh or a citizenship pathway, they need to play by the rules that are already established and they need to continue to engage collectively uh but also independently, in my viewpoint, with um uh with supranational bodies, uh, and then make small concessions um that are required to continue operating uh programs. Because the EU uh will, in my opinion, uh they will continue to threaten uh the Caribbean, uh, they will continue to threaten uh European uh countries, uh and in the case of the Caribbean, it's you know like threatening to remove uh Schengen access. Um the South Pacific, um, where Vanuatu's uh access in the European Union uh through uh visa waiver program was uh was abolished uh or suspended um I think about 18 months ago now. Um so the Caribbean does need to engage, uh, whereas Vanuatu didn't engage with the EA.

Gizane Campos 32:22

I do I think I'll jump to another one because I think we're doing a very good um uh overview of the recent policy changes and where the threats are here and there globally. So I want we cannot just not mention the recent uh changes in the Portuguese nationality law. Joana, do you think it's a signal of a positive outlook for investors?

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Definitely it is, but I think there are um two uh there's one reason behind this amendment that has nothing to do with uh this problem we are addressing. Because one is for sure the problem Portugal has been having with the huge backlog in processing applications. So the government clearly clearly wants to compensate this uh the tremendous timeline everyone is experiencing after investing in Portugal until they have a card. So the idea on this new amendment is that the clock for citizenship starts much earlier. Um the legal provision amended is undergoing now an assessment from the constitutional court, but I think everything will be okay, and soon enough we'll have um a new legal provision making sure that the time um the time waiting that people spent waiting for months and months with no information was not wasted and it's counting towards um legal residency and thus citizenship. But uh, besides this issue from the government, this technicality from the government, I think yes, that's uh an amazing outlook. Portugal is um as one of the most balanced programs in terms of citizenship because it's achievable after five years, which is a short period in Europe. We have lots of relevant countries asking for a 10-year relation with the country. You can uh use this legal, this five year five years of legal residency with a flexible physical presence requirement. And um, but but this was an empty legal provision. So I think that the fact that it starts earlier, it's um a sign of confidence from the the Portuguese government and parliament, and that definitely wants to incentivize people from third countries to invest in Portugal to come to Portugal because our citizenship is fairly easy to obtain uh and fairly quick if we do not consider the delays with the immigration process, which is exactly what they're trying to overcome here.

Gizane Campos 35:11

Okay, so Joana, thank you very much. Um now this brings us to one question which I think I'd like to have an input from each and every one of you. Um, but just don't take your time because uh this is the end, you know. Um I'd like to ask, let's start with Bruno. Um, do you think nationality, is nationality the primary, primary objective of immigration?

SPEAKER_01 35:39

It's nationality, it's becoming a citizen of a country, the objective of uh of migrants. Uh I would say that the long-term goal it probably is, um, if not for themselves, for their children, uh, I would think. Uh it's not the principal driver uh of uh investor migrants. Um, but I would think it the short answer is probably it is yes.

SPEAKER_00 36:03

Okay, thank you. How about you, Joanna? Uh I think that most of the times, yes. For not for everyone, is not everyone is willing to relinquish their own citizenship uh to obtain a new one. That's an issue for uh depending on your country of origin. So but most of the times, yes, because it is citizenship that uh unlocks the full set of rights in a given country. And most people want to access that full set of rights and want to stay in that country, they're not just looking for a brand new shiny passport. So it depends, but I would say it's definitely the major benefit of immigration. So it is most of the times the primary goal.

Patricia Casaburi 36:52

I'm just gonna hop in the answers from both Bruno and Jonah, of course. I I agree. Um, and we've been developing here a concept that um obviously uh only kind of tangible sense of nationality, I think it is the ultimate goal because it ensures, like Bruno said, either an immediate um benefit or something for generations to come. So absolutely agreed. Um, but I I also uh like to think that um when we look at migration and immigration generally speaking, we are also trying to look at citizenshipness, which is um that idea, which is the kind of the broader sense of nationality, which is the fully integration buy into the you know cultural aspects of a community that eventually you're gonna be a part of.

Gizane Campos 37:48

So that's that sounds very interesting. We'll we'll do another podcast to develop more on the concept of citizenshipness, like the idea. Um, I'm really glad I spent this last uh 45, nearly uh one hour, 50 minutes with you guys. Um, I learned lots, and um, and I think it's there's lots also to expect um um unfolding of uh the next months. And um, and yeah, so thank you very much. Bruno, thank you so much for joining us today. Taking time from your very, very busy schedule. Um, hopefully, it will be just the first of many collaborations. I hope to see you again soon here. And John and Patricia, thank you very much also for being here. And uh, and yes, thank you all. I see you next time.