SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to Be Global Podcast, the show that explores the fascinating world of investment migration and global mobility. I'm your host, Gizzani, and today we have a special guest, Anna Maria Kuchanska. Anna is a specialist in digital nomadism and she assists governments, brands, and organizations in navigating the future of work. With a background in the IT industry, she has collaborated with major pharmaceutical companies on digital transformation projects. She's also a multilingual public speaker and TED speaker. Anna began working remotely long before COVID-19, pioneering this approach within her company. She has been a digital nomad since 2018. Welcome to the show, Anna.

SPEAKER_01 0:52

Hello, everybody. Hello, Peter.

SPEAKER_00 0:55

So glad to have you here. I have lots of questions for you. There are some really interesting topics that we're going to explore here today. But I think um I think to set the stage, um, it would be good to give some a bit of background on the short history of uh digital nomadism. Um I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm going to drop some data here. So according to recent data from Nomad List, there are over 35 million digital nomads worldwide. This growing community is um characterized by its members' ability to work remotely from any location thanks to advancement of technology and also the increasing acceptance of remote work by employers. That's something that we still need to work on, but I will ask Anna her thoughts on that. Um so digital nomads are primarily found in the fields of um design, technology, marketing, and writing, but there's also other industries working with um digital nomads or remote workers. Um, and they prefer, they tend to prefer to work from destinations um that offer reliable internet, connectivity, affordable cost of living, and of course vibrant communities. Um I also would like to talk about the economic impact of digital nomadism. It is significant and nomads can contribute to billions of dollars to local economies through their spending on accommodation, dining, and other services. I also would like to take this opportunity to announce that Global Citizen Solutions Intelligence Unit Department is currently working on a global digital nomad report ranking the top 15 destinations for remote workers. So this is still on the making, but it will be fresh out of oven, and this report will evaluate 65 countries as options for remote relocation. All in time for the northern um for the uh northern hemisphere summer season. So now I want to hear all about you being a digital mad and so on, but first of all, seven languages. You speak seven languages, right? Tell me.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Uh so actually I didn't speak any other language until I was 22. Uh I'm originally from Poland, so I only spoke Polish. And then I went abroad and started to learn languages because I also thought that would help me uh professionally. But uh I also like uh culture and languages. I'm curious. I think this is a part of culture, so especially if I like the country, the culture, I try to deep dive to communicate better with local residents.

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Great. Yeah, and I bet um your life um as a digital nomad has also helped enrich your knowledge of languages. So uh tell us how did you become a digital nomad? And that was even before the trend became widely popular.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

That's true. I first heard about digital nomadism in 2015, but uh I started myself, it was 2017 when I moved to Lisbon. Lisbon back then had the biggest uh digital nomad community in Europe. Um, and at the beginning I didn't know how to start, but like having all those people around me that were already digital nomads helped. Uh, that was like a big motivation and influence. And for me, I actually convinced um a recruiter, a company to work remotely because I applied for a position that was not uh remote initially, but I convinced them that I could work remotely, and I was the first person to work remotely for that for that company uh back then, and then they started like to allow remote work for more people, and yeah, so I started um to work for them and I I was able to travel, so that's how my life um as a digital nomad started.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

So that was Lisbon, and then after Lisbon, how many other countries did you um visit forward slash um was based as a digital nomad?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Well, I don't really know, so nowadays it's like around 50. I don't really know how you lost track.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

How many continents then?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

Ah okay, that's better. Uh no, because I haven't been to Australia, so I guess yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Okay, so see, one for your bucket list now. Um okay, fine. So, and then it's um it's quite remarkable that you managed to convince your company at that time, and then um and then being a pioneer there as a as a digital nomad. Um and then, but now you're based in Barcelona, correct?

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Recently, yes, because uh so for five years or so I haven't had any base. I was traveling uh quite a lot, but recently I travel less uh and I have a base in Barcelona, yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:35

Okay. And tell me, how do you think this um uh connotation uh of uh the digital nomadism has changed since then? What has evolved? Not only in terms of infrastructure, we know that COVID allowed us all the technology, but what has uh changed in terms of uh company acceptance, um jurisdiction laws? Do you think there was a there's a great shift going on here?

SPEAKER_01 7:02

Yes, well, so back then, if you told someone you were a digital nomad, they didn't know what that meant. Uh now, like most people I'm talking to, they heard about the concept, they know what it is. Um so there was no digital nomad visas back then, right? That started with COVID, I would say. Now we have more than 50. They started to launch, and countries uh started to try to attract people, like digital nomad or remote workers, and uh potentially keep them for talent and yeah, economical boost. Then uh of course, it's many more people now that are nomads. Uh we were like really a niche back then, like in fact, we we almost knew each other, you know, like even if we're uh around the world, but there were like a few communities. So if you have been a nomad for a while and you went to a few conferences, you knew quite a lot of people. For sure, you knew like um all these communities. Now they are like also much more uh events like conference, festival, retreats. So now actually, digital nomads it became like the whole industry, a business. Uh so a lot of um business owners they are now gathering to nomad as clients, you know, like co-living and co-working. They started booming after COVID, but also like retreats, um, locations, a lot of um, but also like marketplaces, for instance, uh, so the services that are fought for nomads, um, many more communities, more people. Some of these communities are free, but uh now more and more of them are paid, uh like paid communities where you can get some guidance or network with people. Um, so yes, uh press definitely like um before press was not interested in digital nomads now, they are very interested, so they write a lot, but there is also a lot of misconceptions about digital nomadism. And uh so depending where you are, uh so it can be like you can be blamed for gentrification uh in places where usually they have issues with mass tourism, but then in other places you are very welcome because they uh want to attract talent, they want to they want to have innovation, they want economical boost, and they think that nomad could be a great solution. So it's it's really depends on the country, on the stage where they are in, and also I would say on the perception of nomad in that country or region.

SPEAKER_00 9:53

Definitely, yeah, I agree with you. I think there's definitely two sides to it, and I think uh I'd love to explore both sides. Um the because that we can talk about all the benefits that being a digital nomad brings to you at a personal level. Um, you know, in terms of wellness, in terms of productivity, in terms of women who also uh, you know, with from remote work, they're able to tackle, they unfortunately have to deal with a lot more uh of um uh obligations in household, childcare, and so on. So we know it's proven that the ability to work remotely has helped them on that level. Um, but there's also uh the other side of digital nomadism that often leads to misconception, which is you know, being, as you said, uh blamed for gentrification and even the price of uh increase of the local coffee um from rentals and everything. So um so I watched your TED talk, uh very good by the way, on how uh remote work can be a game changer for developing countries. And um so I'd like to to tell me a bit about that concept, um, because um, you know, given all the negative um press or the connotation that digital nomadism gets now, um, it's nice to have a fresh outlook that can present um the positive impact. So can you explain uh more about it, about the the impact that the positive impacts that digital nomads can bring to countries?

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Right. So you think um it's important like to remember that any global mobility will always have like both positive and negative impacts, right? And so that's the case with with immigration, that's the case with tourism or with expats. So, of course, that's also the case with digital nomadism, right? Uh it's it's like nothing new, it's just modern immigration, I would say, but it's much smaller than traditional immigration or than tourist in numbers as of now. Uh so um, in the same way, like we regulate tourism and we regulate immigration, we also need to regulate digital nomadism, especially as it grows, right? Like if we are talking now about millions, and there are even statistics that by 2035 we will have like one billion of remote workers. That doesn't necessarily mean that everybody will be digital nomads, but more and more people will be able, like maybe to go one month or two months somewhere else, and um when they travel also work, right? So they they would be like part-time nomads, and it doesn't really matter that much the definition, but they will be able to travel and work remotely at least sometimes. What that means, right? That we now have this new group uh that is very mobile, right? Like they can travel, they can work, they need certain infrastructure, but of course, this group is so big that if they go to certain places, they're gonna have some impact, right? So, me, I started to talk about positive impact of digital nomads. I think it was 2021. So it was all before like press started to be interested in nomads and all before this negative reputation. Back then, like not so many people were interested in this topic because they thought it's sort of like for philanthropic, you know, like kind of like those people that want to change the world, but it's not very practical, like not everybody has to do that. So it's it's just yeah, certain type of people, but not that big in percentage. Now everybody seems to be interested in that topic because people realize that this is not just like a nice to have, this is a critical factor, right? And this this is not just like me talking about some I don't know, philanthropic stuff, but that's actually a political issue, right? It's a very, very important issue because when you maybe have like hundred nomads somewhere, perhaps they don't have that big impact, but also depends where, because if they go to a small village, seven hundred of people can have impact, right? But then if you have like thousands of them and continuous flow, like we have now in perhaps Lisbon or Bali or Chiang Mai in Thailand or Mexico, right? Then they can have a big impact, right? Both positive and negative. So on one side, we need like to bring more awareness on an individual basis, so people are more aware that what they do and their choices matter, like um how they behave, where they decide to spend their money, all that matters, but that's just on an individual level. That's not enough. I've been nomads for long enough to know that this is not enough, like just uh appealing to personal responsibility is not enough of impact because there are no consequences, right? Like, and people can say, okay, so I have to make all this effort, what is in it for me, right? And not everybody perhaps will do that effort, you know. Like, I mean by this, for instance, doing like proper research when you go somewhere paying fair prices or integrating with locals, or even buying um in local markets, not going to like chains that are known, and perhaps it's easier for you, but buying from a small maybe local business, all these things, right? But we don't have any way to control that. And because of that, I think that's building awareness as much as it's important and we should do that, but it's also not enough. So we also need some regulations in place, and then I appeal, yeah, and I talk to governments, uh, especially local governments, like if um the influx of digital nomads on their territory is significant, or they want to attract those nomads or remote workers, then they need to get uh involved and stepped in. They shouldn't leave that just for some private investors because uh in those countries where right now we have the biggest issue, there was no any strategy, right? That influx happened organically, usually over like a decade or something. Uh, it happened because the country was just popular as a brand, as a tourist brand. It was just a nice place to live, and people started to travel there, and there more and more of them went, uh, and then they started to have issues. But even those popular destinations, right? Like Lisbon or Bali, uh, they also have lots of mass tourism. So digital nomads are part of this group, usually very small. Like, for instance, in Lisbon, to give you numbers, they are perhaps one or two percent. So digital nomad are one or two percent of tourists, or visitors, the same happens in Gran Canaria, so they're one percent. Uh so they don't really have like very big impact. Um, of course, they contribute, but as much as one percent can contribute. But definitely one percent of something cannot change the prices or cause that big negative impact, like they are now being blamed uh too, right? But nevertheless, uh we should act uh and we should uh you know work on that before it becomes a problem. Like, for instance, when a country that wants to attract nomads um should have a proper strategy how to attract them, but not only how to attract them, but also how to integrate them, how to manage them and involve that local community. So that strategy should be really like well-thought, long-term, comprehensive, and from different angles, so we avoid that kind of issue before they even happen.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Okay, I'm really glad you thank you. That was so thorough. Um, but I'm also I'm really glad that you brought um the government into the sphere. Um, because I uh personally believe it's really difficult to um uh address um this issue without the participation, the strategic planning from governments. Um they came quite late into the sphere, bringing you know the visas and adjusting uh tax and um tax and social security. It's still a very grey area there that still needs more development. But I'd like to bring to um to your attention, I'm sure you heard uh maybe you saw him talking about it before, but I read an article where uh Gonzalo Hall, the CEO of Nomad X, he talks about uh the decentralization of uh nomad hubs, and where's uh government, especially the the example of Portugal, um they could um create centers uh that bring digital nomads to Porto, to the islands, and there's also this example of um villages in in Spain where the there's a local uh service called rural R-O-O-R-A-L, you know, of them, um, but how they worked with the local municipality um to get the digital nomads that are based there uh contributing to the society. So without some sort of governmental level, it's very hard in the individual or as an entrepreneur to um integrate um to the local community and bring a positive impact. I'm totally in uh I agree with you on that. Um is there anything else you think would be uh relevant in terms of policies that could be implemented?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Yeah, so you know, because usually when nomad projects starts, usually they are being started by some private investor. So maybe it's a colleague owner, maybe it's someone that organizes a festival, maybe yeah, co-working nowadays, some retreats or some community, right? They all started like that. Uh Gonzalo is actually a friend of mine, and he does some great work. But he works with governments, right? So he has that support. Uh in Madeira, it's uh where he um yeah found the village, digital nomad village. Uh he had the local government support, and that's very important, and it's also a great example because that um that was uh startup Madeira, I think. So they act as a bridge that connects then digital nomads to locals and facilitate like a lot of services, right? And that part is very important because um we can have like a lot of uh projects, and we actually have a lot of projects nowadays. But if we only rely on private investors, then of course they only look for their own benefits, right? Like most of them they just want to attract nomas, they want to build their own uh community. Sometimes it's even exclusive community uh because perhaps it's paid. Like, you know, they are not ONH, so they don't necessarily think about the bigger impact or like the bigger picture of the local residents. Like we had examples of a lot of that. So decentralization, especially in countries like Spain or Portugal, that already have a lot of nomads, but usually they are in one place is uh Very good solution that we can, you know, um deal with this influx. Because why do we have to be all in one place, like especially Spain and Portugal? We have um so many small places that after summer they are like very empty. Um so then, and actually I even proposed for a local government in Spain a project like one hour from Spain. So this is being still in negotiation with that idea in mind. Like we have too many people already in Barcelona, but then on Costa Brava, there is a lot of like empty accommodation, they only being used like in summer, uh, Jules and August, and then they stay empty, right? So why don't you know this is like um we don't contribute to I don't know, Barcelona becoming even more expensive, but there in those towns we can really have a big positive impact because it's actually easier to make a positive impact in a small towns than in a big city. In a big city, you just like, yeah, you know, 1% of tourism. So how much that matters? Like uh all that, um I would say blaming from press, it's not even like if they looked at the number, they would realize that just doesn't make any sense, like how 1% of nomads can be responsible for gentrification. They just um fall in the basket of uh huge tourism and they put them all in the same box and that's it. But like those people in other places, like smaller villages or even smaller towns, it doesn't have to be a village, they they can really have an impact, like hundreds of people can have impact in a town that's 7,000 people uh if they are well managed. So, what is important, like if you have uh regulations, I think there needs to be some kind of bridge, you know, that connects nomads to local uh residents. So local residents can participate also and be part of that community. Uh nomads can volunteer, nomads can get integrated more than just come and see places. Um, that integration doesn't happen naturally. I've been talking to many government representatives, and they they want to have all these benefits from digital nomadism, not only economical boosts, but also like innovation, potential investments, um, you know, like uplifting locals, uh nomads volunteering, or yeah, innovation, cultural exchange. They all want that a part of economical boost, but they don't really do anything to connect them usually. And this doesn't happen alone. It just doesn't, because if it would, then we would already had some examples around the world. And what we have is examples of some sort of ghettos uh in FA most places where they just no much stay in their own environment because uh there are many reasons why that happens, but you know, like there are barriers, right? Language barrier, cultural barriers, uh sometimes it's safety, sometimes they would gladly help, but they don't even know where, how how to connect, how to do that. But in my opinion, if they are being facilitated, uh, if there is a breach, uh many people are eager to connect. So that's a very important part, and that can change um you know, um reinforce the positive impact, but also change the perception because when the locals are involved, they don't react with this hate or envy or fear because they feel being part of, and when they see how they can benefit from that community, so we are building like more inclusive community and uplifting locals, right? But for that to happen, we need to have a plan and we need to make that happen, right? So that bridge, which can be like any government organization or co-leaving or NGO, or it could be also any private investors, but most of the time that's not you know the core business, so that's not of their interest to do that. That's why I also think that government should be involved and like facilitate, regulate, and do something about it uh to connect, to act as a bridge. Uh, for instance, incubators could also do that part, right? Or accelerators to connect. And then, because once you have the people to really um get the benefits of digital nomadism, you need to integrate them, you need to manage them well, you need to think how you want them. Um, okay, they came, but for instance, to avoid that they are all in one place and between themselves, you need to also manage them, right? So, all that is a part of strategy.

SPEAKER_00 26:36

Okay, I get it, and I think it's it's um brilliant the way you put it. Um, it's to connect an order, to connect them, um that need to be some level of a strategic plan and governmental participation, um, on groups and um volunteering and so on, because they are willing to do so. Um so that's that's very good. Thank you. Now um I'd like to ask you on the topic of um what the digital uh nomad uh or the remote worker would like to do and um how they impact the local uh society. Um there is that's a misconception that uh the digital nomad uh like one month here, the other month somewhere else, but they often settle for a little bit longer, and um sometimes they bring families, but if that if they have like smaller children and so on. Have you seen the right of services to um to supply the demand of um of the digital nomads from its many different profiles? Um you know, from the the young one who's just traveling to the family that wants to settle for a while.

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Yes, uh so actually digital nomad families, it's uh rising uh niche. Uh, like when we all started, it was maybe more homogeneous because it was more men, they work in IT, uh, they were young, right? Like less than 30 and so on. But uh now after COVID, especially the group got more diversified, so you really have everything. It's just not um every part is equally visible. That's that's also the the thing. But the digital nomad families is definitely many of them traveling already, and they are already like one company that's called Boundless Life. If I think that's uh so they organize like the stays for uh families, but I think there are also more of them. Um, but I would say that comparing to other services, this is still pretty new. So, like they are not so many offers uh because also it's a very new market, like it's only after COVID that Disney started. So we definitely need uh many more companies that would offer services for um families, right? Because perhaps parents work remotely, they can travel, but what they do with kids, right? And that's definitely involves more logistics, and it's also perhaps more expensive to move as a whole family, and then you have school, right? So, how we deal with that? So I see that already started. Like there are some families, um, I even know like two of them personally, three of them. Uh like they travel and they use sometimes these services. Usually they stay more in the same places, right? So maybe they don't move like every month, but uh anyway, the trend is also to stay longer, uh, even for single people and younger people without perhaps like uh family responsibilities. So they many people don't just stay one month, they stay as long as the visa allows them, often, and then they change, right? So then again, we enter into these visa topics. Uh, but also, for instance, uh nomads with van, you know, like van life, it also growing. Uh, there are like communities of people that travel by van. Many of them travel by van because, for instance, they have pets, and then it's easier to travel by van than by plane. Um, that would be also yeah, um, more complicated try it because you need also a lot of uh papers to travel with uh with a dog or with a cat. Uh some people also travel by boat, uh, so there is also that. Uh, you really now have a variety, so the group uh you have everything, you have more women since uh pandemic as digital nomads, so the community is more diversified and different groups of people. The of course the groups that are um more new, so the market is perhaps you know very fresh, uh, so they don't have that much offer, like for young people that were already nomads, like I didn't know, a decade before.

SPEAKER_00 31:00

Okay, I see. Um, you've also mentioned the topic of uh visa, and um so I'd like to bring up the expenses that it can um occur uh during your decision to become a digital nomad. So if you are within the Schengen area and you want to stay within the Schengen area, you're probably not going to be required a visa. Uh, but if you're in the US or the UK and you want to come to um the Schengen, then you are required a visa and you need to factor in that each country has a um it's not really the the the the cost as an investment, but how much you need to be making per month, per year. Um do you um do you think this could be uh improved on the government level again? Do you think this could be um are there um perhaps this could be more streamlined?

SPEAKER_01 32:00

Yes, and it's short. You know, these visas are like MVPs because um they were launched during COVID times, and many of them were actually launched like a response to lack of tourists. Like uh they basically thought, okay, so people are not traveling, but we see that some people are you know traveling and working remotely, maybe we can attract them, right? That was even the concept behind the um uh Madeira uh nomad um village, right? Like so they are not tourists, but they are uh digital nomads. So so that was in some way for many countries like replacement of traditional tourism. What does it mean? That they didn't fold that much about that visa, right? Like they didn't float like long term that this could be a talent attraction and what condition they need to meet. Uh they also launch them usually very fast. Uh so definitely that can be improved. Um, lots of times they have like too many requirements, so many people can't really get in. In fact, the naming is also very confusing because many of those visas they are actually for remote workers and perhaps location-independent investors, not really for digital nomads, because they want them to move to the country, to stay, and to pay taxes. And when you do that, you are not a nomad anymore. So we also need to use like correct definitions, especially when we talk about concepts like uh visas and government regulations. So the remote workers is not the same that digital nomads, right? Even though digital nomads are often at the top of the funnel and they can be, can they can become remote workers and they can settle eventually, or they can decide that they want to pay taxes in certain countries because that country is perhaps the most attractive for them, or they just like it there, or for whatever reason they bought a house, right? So that often happens after people travel for some time. They decided to settle maybe some, or no, not even settle, but have a base, right? For some reason, and maybe they travel less, but they have a base or they pay taxes somewhere. So the um then other countries they basically copied what some other countries did without like much reflection again. So many of those visas is just MVP, it really can be improved a lot. Um and only now I think some countries start to realize okay, so this could be actually a talent attraction, right? Tool, not just like um digital nomads that stay for a while or because these visas are for one year, and what happens next, right? Like we many of them don't even have this plan. Like if you attracted someone for one year, what happens next with that person? There is no path, for instance, to um becoming a resident is not connected in any way. If people want to stay longer, they they don't know what to do with them because after one year it technically ends, right? So if you made all this effort and promotion to attract that person, why not to give them options like to stay longer, right? Especially that many of the countries struggle now with talents, right? We have not enough young people. So once you attract those people, you want to stay them perhaps. If they have been there for a year, it's much easier to make that person to stay longer than to attract a new one. But the focus right now is just on to attract. So the formula ISA's, uh, which was like um, I actually say that my company that I founded helps like governments and brands to attract, uh, to integrate um and to keep, right? Because there are those three parts, and right now, like many governments, they only focus on attraction part, and they just don't even think that much like what happens next when they have those people. But once you have them, you have to integrate them. That actually increases the possibility they're gonna stay longer, and then you also have some kind of you know tools that will they will consider to stay longer and become like perhaps permanent residents or buy a house, right? Because that doesn't depend just on nomads willing to do that or no. It depends on the facilities and infrastructure we give them. Are the tax uh interesting for them, right? Like what if they have some businesses, can they incorporate them easily, right? Uh, how easy it is to become like permanent resident or buy a house, right? So all that should be connected to these visas. For now, it's not. Um, also most of these visas they it doesn't allow people to work on them. I think this is a mistake, but they were invented, you know, like without much thinking about the long-term strategy. They usually only thought, okay, let's bring nomads, uh, so it's an economical boost. And now only they start to realize, okay, so um many of them didn't even succeed, right? So they didn't even manage to bring those nomads. Those that bring think, okay, so what now, right? For instance, Estonia, which was the first country in Europe that had the digital nomad visa, they now change that visa and say that people can work on that visa. Because you see, if we are talking all the time that we want those people to have a positive impact, then we should allow them to act, right? Because if they can't even work, like in some countries, even doing volunteering or unpaid work is considered work. So technically, you wouldn't be able to do much with the local um, I would say you can have like local partner, maybe you can't even have uh local providers because you cannot work in that country, but why not? You actually should, and that is what can help also stimulate local business, right? Like have local clients or local partners or local providers, or you know, volunteer even in some countries that's considered work. So you should be as free as possible because, anyway, like usually um digital nomads are not competing for the local market jobs, right? It's more often that the case that they could hire local people or they could perhaps partner with local companies because, for instance, they would have like affordable suppliers, right, for their services. But for that, they need to be free to work, right? So I think the next steps is actually allowing people also on that visa to work, um to work, and then connect that in some way to to the path to the permanent residency. Like, for instance, you have one year, and maybe after that you can sign to become a resident, because that's actually all in if you want those people to invest in something, right? To stay longer, that's what you should be doing. And perhaps reduce like the requirements because some visas are really too complicated, like have too many um, I would say, requirements, you know, like that they wouldn't ask normally other people, like so. The tourists can go to the country without anything, and if you apply for a digital nomad visa, you have to do so much paperwork in take months that some people will just try to avoid it as much as possible as long as they're which is a case of time, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Because a lot of digital nomads are going with tourist visa because they can't be faced or the bureaucracy that is required. Okay, well, that was really good, Anna. Thank you very much. I wanted to ask you, based on all this experience that you have, um what advice would you give to someone considering becoming a digital nomad in today's world? Um, you know, given the current uh trends and challenges?

SPEAKER_01 39:34

Right. I think uh if someone never tried that again, so it's very good to join like uh nomad communities or nomad events. So it's having that supportive environment really can uplift you, give you ideas, or you can even find work, you know, in that because often like nomads have some businesses and they can hire someone more junior. So that would be the first thing if I had to do that uh nowadays. Because even look at me, if we don't have like the right group of support, like I took like two years, I didn't do anything because I didn't know how, and we have so much information online, but sometimes you just don't know even how to find it. So I think surrounding yourself with those people that are already doing that is really the first step, because often what stops us is not like possibilities or skills, but our mindset. We just don't see it is possible for us. But when we are surrounded by the people that are doing that, then you know you just like look around and say, okay, so hundreds of other people can do that, so maybe I can do that too, and that starts to shift. And once you start to think that you can do that, then you start to look for possibilities, right? Like what exactly is possible for me with my talent and skills and my experience, and then it's of course personalized because it depends like what you know, what you don't know, where you are. So there are different paths for many people, but I think mindset and like the community is first and it's uh critical step.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

Okay, so get yourself acquainted and find contacts online. Um, can I also ask if you encountered any particular challenges or setbacks as a digital nomad, something very specific that you and how you did overcome it?

SPEAKER_01 41:22

Yeah, me, I really didn't so much. Um, but I know for many people the problem is like feeling lonely, or finding that that balance between like uh work and life because you need to be much more disciplined, right? You need to take care of yourself much better, of your social life, of your productivity, of your health. Um again, like communities are super important. I think nowadays we you know the technical things are not really an issue anymore in like in many countries. It just comes to the fact of you having some income and then you just connect with people and you can do that. Uh, but I think that mental part is often a problem for many people, uh, especially to be able to be like nomadic in a sustainable way, you know, because there are many people that are maybe nomads one year, two years, and then they get tired. And usually they get tired because they feel lonely, they don't know how to connect with others, how to build relationships uh with other nomads, but also people that are not nomads, and they feel like they are left, right? Um like outside of society, I would say. And that's usually the reason people abandon that. So that's that's always the number one challenge, and that's like how to overcome that is really a conversation for another episode. Of course, because you need to be yes, you need to be much more intentional in uh finding those connections, but also in keeping them, yeah. Like they again they don't happen in a natural way, right? If you are not a nomad, you can just go to a gym every week and you can make friends there, but without really doing any effort, you just see someone every week. As a nomad, you don't see everyone, nobody actually every week. You need to make sure uh that you set a time to meet that people and to keep uh in touch with them, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:18

Yeah, yeah, and establish a routine. Um, yeah, that's great. Thank you. Um Anna, where do people where can people find your services? Um uh tell me a bit. I know there's a great deal of work online on your Instagram, YouTube page, but um, you are uh your best brand ambassador. So tell us a little bit how you know um people can access your services and um and yeah, and and learn more about uh remote work.

SPEAKER_01 43:52

Right, so um about myself, people can find me on LinkedIn. It's just uh my name, my surname, Anna Maria Kohansa. And the same is on Instagram or Facebook, so it's really easy.

SPEAKER_00 44:04

I'm very sorry, I've been pronouncing your name terribly wrong. Kochanska.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

I'm Polish, so ch is h, so it's Kochanska. But yeah, in Britain it's the same. So yes, people can find me there. And if they looking, uh so yes, I share a lot of you know information. I'm also part of many groups, I do public speaking, so people can also join events where I'm speaking. Sometimes there are some events that are online, they are even for free, so then people can also make questions. Uh, I do really encourage people to join those events because I'm not able to respond like to every PM I get. But there is always time like on the events that I promote and say, okay, so now it's a question. So and then you can make your individual question, or even better, to attend those events and then we can meet in person, right? In any case, there is a really huge deal of information online, podcasts, and communities that are free. But I think it's good to follow people that inspire you, and so they can also uh show you the path, right? Like, no, not on necessarily me, but other nomads that uh have been nomads maybe for a while, right? They are active um like partners in community, they share a lot of information, often for free. Uh, so it's yeah, if someone wants to start, or even they started already, but they maybe want to be more engaged, um, to be more part of something, then yes, they should follow and uh engage, not just follow, right, but uh engage uh with these people online.

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Sure, absolutely. Anna, thank you so much for sharing with us your wealth of experience and um and insights into the life of uh being a digital nomad. We talked about remote work, we talked about wellness, productivity, but we also delved into uh the uh governmental role in uh this trend and the impact, the positive impact that this trend can bring to countries and villages. Um we talked about the um you know the impact on depopulation of uh small villages of Spain and um Portugal as well, so we can only um uh learn from this experience and improve and um and get this um this decentralization happening more um uh fast uh faster. So, yes, thank you again, and I'd like to uh hopefully this is the first of um many other interviews um because there are so many topics we can explore in the realm of digital nomadism. Um I hope you enjoy your time um wherever you are in the world right now, and um and thank you very much for anyone who's listening to us. Our digital nomad report will be launched soon. Stay tuned, and um and yes, thank you very much. See you soon.