Gizane Campos 0:00

Welcome to Big Global Podcast, the show that explores the fascinating world of investment migration. I'm your host, Shisani, and today we are going to delve into the evolution of the American diaspora over the years. Our guest is Doris Peer, the president of the Association of Americans Residents Overseas, also known as Aero. It is a global nonprofit organization that addresses all the issues that Americans face when living abroad and advocating for their fair treatment by the US government. Doris, welcome to the show. Also joining us is Laura Madrid Satureto, Head of Research at our Global Intelligence Unit. She will bring her expertise on global relocation to discuss with Doris on trends and challenges faced by US citizens living abroad. Before we dive into the current state of US citizens living abroad, I'd like to set the stage with some numbers on US expats. So Doris, thank you for being here. Laura, thank you. I'm sure you're aware of it, or perhaps Laura, because she runs, uh ran a really deep study on um US um citizens leaving overseas. But there are currently nine million US citizens living outside the United States. Um it is it indicates a robust trend of Americans' presence worldwide. Yeah. But when we talk about the diaspora, it's um very different from the traditional diasporas because they often begin with economic hardships, uh, conflicts, or forced migration. Um the American diaspora is largely a phenomenon of expatriation where individuals choose to live abroad for a variety of reasons, um, which could include retirement, education, just personal preference, employment, and so on. So now on the numbers, um, Mexico and Canada tend to be the top destinations. Um, around 1.5 US citizens residing in Mexico and Canada nearly 900,000 um as of 2023. Um, I know in Portugal there are over 7,000 Americans living here. Uh do you have any data on France, uh, Doris? How many Americans are living there at the moment?

SPEAKER_01 2:45

That is a very good question because the numbers of Americans living in various countries, depending on who you speak to, vary greatly. We did an analysis of this just a few months ago based on various um data points, and we see that there are about a hundred thousand Americans living in France, depending on who you talk to. And in fact, even the nine million number by some is far less because the nine million number for some comes from the State Department. And according to another branch of the US government, this 9 million number includes not just those living abroad, but those traveling abroad. So let's say people on holiday, people passing through, students in school and such, and so there are four, really, nobody really knows the precise number of Americans living abroad. So it's an educated guess. It's somewhere between, let's say, four, five and a half million and nine million, depending on how how well you can actually delve into the numbers.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

So I say that 100,000 in Paris, and I'm sorry, in France, but that's not necessarily correct. And as the days pass, it becomes different because life changes.

Gizane Campos 4:05

Definitely, yeah. And this data, is it from the French government that you no, because there there is no official source.

SPEAKER_01 4:14

The US Embassy does not keep track. The US Embassy in Paris, for example, does not keep track of the number of Americans living in the United States. One can register with the embassy, which is a smart thing to do for purposes of receiving notification in the event of world events that would require one to leave the country, but one is not required to do so. And so the French government does not know. Um, but there's all kinds of data points that other people use in order to make this estimation. Interesting. Do you have anything to say?

Gizane Campos 4:51

Because you're not going to be able to do that.

Laura Madrid 4:52

When I was researching on the numbers, I actually came into your analysis. You have uh, I think three data points that you mentioned, the US Department, yeah, State Department, and then uh an expert estimation. And what I would say the takeaway from this uh from this subject is that we need more research and we need to better track these movements of people because we can do that, but for some reason, of course, because research is expensive and services are expensive, for some reason we don't have exact uh estimations of people relocating, even from a country like the US, like um developed country. Uh the states still they they pass on uh keeping track of this uh movement. So you have estimations, but as Doris says, uh life changes every day, but there is a trend, and then you know, uh experts like Professor Kirsten Stewart and even and Professor Peter Spiro, they identify a trend of US citizens citizens wanting to relocate for several reasons.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

Laura's absolutely right. There are more and more Americans going overseas, especially since COVID. We've seen that. So, whatever the number is, it's going up.

Gizane Campos 6:16

Yeah. Okay, so I know we jumped um headfirst into our subject here, deep with numbers and so on, but I want to slow down the pace because I want our audience to know more about Doris before we talk about, you know, what you do here because it has a lot to do with the subject. Okay. So, Doris, are you from the United States? Where about?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

I was born near Detroit, Michigan, um, in the north. Okay. And I lived in New York City for many years before coming over to Paris. And my relocating to Paris is interesting because I've come at two different stages of my life. I came in my 20s as a student, as a musician. So I did it on my own with no help from anyone, all my own papers and trying to get a job, trying to get an apartment and such. And I was in Paris, didn't speak a word of the language. Uh, and I learned it, of course. I was here for two and a half years at that time, went back and decided to come back the correct way, uh, became a lawyer, uh, worked in New York, then moved to a French company, which moved me to Paris. And so therefore, I did it in it, let's say, an easier way, whereby I had assistance from a company, a company such as Laura's, which helped me with what I needed to learn and to do in order to move successfully to France.

Gizane Campos 7:39

Okay, so musician, what which instrument did you play? Percussion. Percussion, okay. Musician, then lawyer, New York, and then Paris. I bet the transition wasn't that it, you know, because you know, the uh the fame of uh the New York, the New Yorkers and the Parisians, they all tend to be a bit grumpy and so on. I guess Parisians more. Um, New York quite fast. So, how was the transition? You move into the two cities, are you um did you settle well there?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

I settled quite well. I found Paris to be uh a much easier city to live in than New York. Um a type A personality naturally, and New York just accentuated that aspect of my personality. So I found that in Paris I was being actually pulled back a little bit. And I worked in a French company, I had French people working for me, so I had to very quickly learn how to adapt to the French way of working, and I had started my career in one of the Wall Street law firms, so 100-hour work weeks were normal for me, which is not normal in France. Yeah, so I had to be as the French, and so that was for me a very big cultural change, yeah, but it was a good change. It I was I learned to to live life, to enjoy life, uh, the cafe society, as well as working hard, learning how to be productive within a shorter work day, yeah, and such. So I love life.

Gizane Campos 9:13

Oh great, great, I envy you. Well, I moved to Paris now. Oh, it's worth it. It's lovely. Um, so tell me, you so you experienced some challenges which are uh normal when you are uh moving to another country, but um were any of those challenges and motivation behind um the creation of the arrow, of Arrow? Or um tell me a bit more how how Arrow came into your life.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Well, how Arrow came into being is different from how Arrow came into my life. Okay. I can tell you maybe about how Arrow came into being and then how I chose to be. You choose the roots. Arrow is celebrating its 50th anniversary as Portugal is.

Gizane Campos 10:02

Congratulations, Arrow.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Congratulations, Portugal also. Arrow was formed in 1973 by a small group of American women. Women who were unhappy with the fact that they could not transmit citizenship to their children. Uh-huh. Unhappy that children who did have the American citizenship could lose it if they did not satisfy residency requirements.

Gizane Campos 10:25

Hang on, American women could not transmit the citizenship to their children.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Born abroad.

Gizane Campos 10:29

Born abroad.

SPEAKER_01 10:30

A woman in Paris had a child in Paris, that child was not automatically American back in 1973. And if one took the citizenship of another country at that time, one could lose the American citizenship. So they started Aero to advocate for on the citizenship basis. And again, it was a group of women, and one of the founders, she said, Well, if we're going to go and advocate before Congress, we're going to need some men. So they admitted men to the association. Yeah. And the men have been great. And so they advocated on citizenship. They then added voting because at that time it was practically impossible for an overseas American to vote. And over the ensuing decades, they've added taxation, banking, financial reporting, which are newer issues, Social Security and Medicare. And so today, Aero is an association with members in about 40 countries of the world, advocating on all these issues. And our mission is education and advocacy. Education of our elected representatives of the issues we're facing overseas. They have no idea, many of them. And then advocating to change the laws, rules, and regulations that negatively affect us. That's the external aspect. But internally, we have members. And so we educate our members on their rights and responsibilities as American citizens. And we help them. We help them navigate those issues. That's our mission. In fact, you can I can put our issue in four words, which is Americans helping Americans abroad.

Gizane Campos 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

So that's Aero. That's Arrow. Yeah. Um, I've come into Aero, oh gosh, only in the last 10 years or so. I was in France working for a French company, very upset that I was double taxed.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

And I had an American boss and I complained bitterly about the taxation. I had no idea why. I didn't know any of the issues. I was just a lawyer working doing international mergers and acquisitions running around the world and you know, not really focused on being an American. And he said, Well, there's this association in Paris. Why don't you join them? And I thought, why not? If they know something about tax. You did something very frange. I'm not. And so I joined Aero, and then soon after we got kicked out of our bank because banks don't like Americans with foreign addresses. And the banking person at Aero helped me. The tax person at Aero helped me. And then I had a girlfriend who had an issue with Social Security. There's something called WEP, the Windfall Elimination Provision. And I needed information for her on that. Someone at Aero helped me with that. And I thought, my goodness, this is a pretty good association. I'm going to get more involved. And I then eventually got on the board. And a couple of years ago, there was a vacancy in the post of president. And I thought, well, I can help. Yeah. A lot of the issues are legal issues. And I thought, well, that would be something I could do with my time. Now, this is a volunteer organization. This is we are not paid persons. And I saw these wonderful people who are dedicating their free time to helping Americans navigate living abroad. And I think it's a worthwhile endeavor. And I thought, well, I've been helped. Let me throw a few years of my time into this and see if I can make change. I've never done that before in my life. I'm not a volunteerist by profession. I'm a lawyer, for goodness sakes. So I thought that I would do that. And um it's wonderful. It's it's exercising that part of my my legal brain for the good of human beings across the table from me. Yeah. And I like that.

Gizane Campos 14:32

This is excellent. So when did you join Aero as a member?

SPEAKER_01 14:39

Maybe 10 years ago. Okay. I can't remember, something like that. And I was a member for years before becoming on the board.

Gizane Campos 14:46

Okay, and Aero is present in um about 40 countries. Yeah. So I guess you have members there that also help with the practicalities and challenges. So you so the ladies of ARO pretty much preceded the uh trend of digital nomadism because from far and uh apart, you know, being apart from each other, you helped other expats with their journey to acquire citizenship or just to settle either um um temporarily or permanently at a place. But uh but yeah, it must be quite hard to run a run um an organization in many different parts of the world.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

Well, what we do is the advocacy branch of Aero is basically to talk to members of Congress, to try to change the laws. We try to affect to help people by getting the laws changed, which negatively affect their rights. We don't go to Singapore to help somebody in Singapore navigate living in Singapore. We're different from from what Laura does. And it's an interesting, we're very complimentary. Yeah. We help people once they're already overseas, if they get kicked out of their bank, for example, we we help them to try to find a bank where they live, which maybe could take them on, or if they have issues with their taxes, we can maybe give lead them to a professional that can help them, but we don't give tax advice ourselves, but we lead them to the people who can do so. And some people, for example, on the windfall elimination provision, there are ways that one can avoid it in certain countries, and we advise them if you do it this way, you might get an except an exemption from it. Yeah. Um, and then just simply getting people to register to vote. They don't, it's difficult still or complicated to register to vote in some states. It's different in every state. And so we help get people registered and let them know this is how you can vote. You've got to register now because you need time to get that ballot and to mail it back because in some cut states it has to be has to arrive by the postal mail. Oh, it's not done at the embassy, the local embassy, no. No, it depends on the state. Every state of the United States has its own rules, and you have to know what they are. There's a federal law that guarantees a federal right to vote, but it relies all and there's a federal process, but there's also a state process, and it's different. And sometimes you can vote by email, sometimes you have to mail something in and then get something mailed back, fill it out, and mail it again. And if you're living in a far-flown country with very slow mail, yeah, you might not, and you don't know if your ballot has even arrived sometimes. Some states are very good about that. I'm lucky in that my childhood best friend um worked in the county clerk office in the district where I voted, and she would say, Okay, Doris, I've received your ballot. So I was very lucky, but she's now retired, so I have to do it like everybody else. Yeah. But uh, so we help people register to vote. And in this election year, voting is so, so important. Of course, yeah. And and very few Americans abroad do vote. And that's the the bottom line to our issues is that Americans are not heard because the elected representatives in the United States don't care because we don't vote as a block. We vote, each American abroad votes in the last state in which he or he had residence. And so I vote in the state of Michigan. Someone next to me votes in Texas, the person next to me on the other side votes in Massachusetts. And so all of the people at ARA, we vote in 40 different states. So we cannot speak with one voice to one representative. And so they always ask us how many of your members are in Montana? Maybe one, I mean, I don't know. So it's hard to convince them that we are a significant constituent bloc. And that's the problem. And a lot of Americans abroad also don't vote because it's complicated still, even though there is now of the uh the laws in place which guarantees the right to vote in federal elections. So that's the problem.

Gizane Campos 19:30

I'm glad you're sharing this with us because um our audience is mostly from the USA. So um I don't know if they are based in the USA, but uh, but if they are based in other countries and they hear what you're saying right now, um I'm sure they will find it helpful as well to understand it. And that voting is very important and there is a way for you to vote. So um just get yourself informed. I also would like to ask what other challenges um often happen with US citizens abroad that Aero has um you know intervened or helped educate and so on healthy health insurance, perhaps.

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Well, we provide a health insurance plan for our members, and this was this is a plan tailor-made for Americans who are living outside of the United States. We put this plan in place, I'm going to say 1987 or so. And it was created precisely for Americans abroad. The insurance is offered in almost every country of the world wherever you reside. Uh, one can even choose two resident countries. If, for example, you live in France and you have a summer home in Switzerland, each of those countries is considered a resident country for purposes of reimbursement. And very importantly, we all the insurance also covers one if one goes back to visit, say, people in the United States, family and such, and has an issue there, an accident or an emergency in the United States, the insurance will cover up to 30 days in the United States, as well as coverage when you're traveling elsewhere in the world, easily portable, no age limit, um, no reimbursement limit. Um, all there's some very nice bells and whistles, I would say, to this plan that we offer. And it can be what we call first euro, meaning your primary insurance, or it can be what we call in French uh mutual, which is the supplemental. If you already, if you're in a country where you have the national health insurance, as in France, then you can use this plan as your supplemental. So you can do it that way also. It also has various levels of reimbursement, gold, silver, all those kinds of things. You can find that on our website.

Gizane Campos 21:49

Yeah, yeah, okay. It's just because we I think it's interesting that we covered um the educational element of uh, you know, the voting difficulties and challenges, but is that it is possible. Um depending on each state, and you just need to go and find information. We talked about healthcare, and then the one subject that I know you don't want to talk about, but I will ask anyway, is the US tax system.

unknown 22:14

Oh boy.

Gizane Campos 22:17

How are you or Aero actively involved in advocacy efforts to reform the citizenship-based uh tax uh taxation system?

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Yes, that is the Holy Grail for Aero, as well as other overseas organizations. What we would like to do is, of course, eliminate citizenship-based taxation, replace it with what is called RBT residency-based taxation or source-based taxation. The different organizations overseas have different views on what that would look like, because unlike some of the other issues that we advocate, which are a little easier, reform of taxation requires a huge change to the tax code, which is it's it's a very, it would be a difficult exercise. You know, because we've we've been working with another organization on how this would look. We have a three-page white paper that we're working on, and we're trying to propose conceptual, um, let's say, not legislative wording, but conceptual concepts. And it and eliminating CBT uh requires many changes to the tax code. And there there would be winners and losers. There are, let's say, the vast majority of Americans abroad do not want to be taxed by the United States on their worldwide income. When I worked in France for a French company, for example, I was uh subject to tax by the United States on the same income to which I was subject to tax by the French government. The credits are not 100%. So one is, in effect, double taxed. And also when it comes to, let's say, one's retirement plan. The retirement plan, the, the, the, the, the tax advantages that one has on retirement plans in the United States, you know, the qualified plan. So you're not taxed on the earnings and such. Well, if you have a plan such as that in your country of residence with your employer in your local country of residence, the US government does not recognize that as a qualified plan. So your home country will not tax you, but the US will. So that we there are many ways to go about this. Of course, getting rid of CPT in and of itself would eliminate many, many issues. But we are also looking at what I call picking at the low-hanging fruit. Okay. If we can find little bits and pieces of things that could make life better for some without losing sight of the overall goal, we will do that. But we actively uh we actively advocate to eliminate CBT and we go on an annual basis to Washington, D.C. This year we're going the week of June 3rd. Okay. Six of us from Aero go, and we run up and down the Capitol steps of trying to meet with as many people as possible. We're currently making our um our um appointments now. Last year we had 60 meetings, six zeros. 60. Every 30 minutes. Every 30 minutes, two, three at a time, running all over the place, meeting with people, and advocating on all the issues for Americans abroad. It's an annual, we call it Overseas Americans Week, which is a trademark Aero uh um event. Other or organ overseas organizations do something similar. They call that door knock. The Democrats abroad do it. I believe the Republicans overseas might be doing it. There's another group that might be doing it. But what's very important is Aero is non-partisan. Yeah, yeah. And that is our claim to fame. We're not famous, but that helps us when we advocate because we can talk at 2 p.m. to a Republican, at 2:30 to a Democrat, and then at 3 o'clock to an independent, and then we just complete the cycle again because we talk the issues and we can get into all those doors. And there are some issues that a Republican Congressperson would be more amenable to, and different issues that a Democratic would be more amenable to. And there are some which are bipartisan. Whoever they are, we talk to the source and we raise the issue that we think that they're going to care about. And circle back and finish on the citizenship-based taxation. The difficulty with that is, of course, the revenue. The the US government believes that it would lose a huge amount of revenue if it were to eliminate CBT. And so there are all kinds of studies being made as to how much revenue would that actually be. Because of this large number of Americans living abroad, whatever that number is, up to 9 million, um there are there's a far less number of US tax returns being filed. That we know because they're filed. And I'm gonna say it's about one and a half million or something like that. So yeah, I'm throwing that number out, I could double-check that. But it's a far smaller number of taxes, and many of those people who file those returns are not paying taxes because of the income exclusion. And so the requirement to file a tax return, in essence, is not as revenue generating as some may believe, because so many Americans are not paying taxes if they earn below a certain amount because they have an exclusion, but yet they have to pay one to three thousand dollars per year to their tax preparer to actually file the return to realize they don't pay any tax. Um, and so, but there are, of course, some very wealthy people abroad who do pay a significant significant amount of tax to the U.S. government. And there are ways that you can still capture that and still make life easier for the people who would not pay tax anyway. And so all the various organizations overseas are, let's say, slicing and dicing the cutting the sausage, I guess people will say to find a way to make life better for some, or as many as possible, but still uh trying to convince the US government that you are not letting people be tax chiefs. There's this perception that Americans abroad are rich.

Gizane Campos 28:35

Yeah, true. But do you anticipate any positive changes coming, you know, to less the burden of um of Americans overseas uh with regards to their taxes? Um, at least, you know, um if you are under the brackets, but you still need to file your tax, so you go part away with 3,000 um US dollars just to say that you, you know, uh that you're filing your tax return. Do you think that will be changed somehow soon?

SPEAKER_01 29:06

I must be hopeful. Yeah. Um there there is uh there's a bill in this Congress, which is called the Tax Simplification Act, which was also presented in the 117th. Um and will it pass to this Congress before the end of this calendar year? Possibly not. Probably not, but there it's been proposed again, and it would lessen the burden if this were to be passed on many Americans abroad. It would um increase the income exclusion, so many fewer would have to pay tax. It also would simplify the tax form itself to where one would maybe not have to hire an outside um advisor to do them, and it would consolidate the the financial reporting, which is currently FATCA and FBAR, which are two separate reporting requirements. It would ease the burden there. I see it being more probable that there'll be movement in the FBAR area and the FATCA area than in the CBT area. CBT, yeah. But it just depends on how you know how successful all the various overseas organizations such as Aero are in educating the members of Congress. And and the number one education is to convince them we are not fat cats. The reason it's called fatca is be a play on word with fat cat. Yeah, yeah. We are not fat cats, and so we have to keep reminding them that we are just normal people. Normal people, yeah. Black people in Iowa, Missouri, whatever state. We just happen to want to live somewhere else. And why do I have issues with my bank account down the street from me in Paris? Why do I have to provide all this information under penalty of huge fines for my local bank account from which I take money to pay my rent and buy my groceries when someone in Missouri doesn't have to? That's not fair. So those are the kinds of arguments that do resonate with many congresspersons. And so we have to keep making those arguments and letting them know that we are not any different from their resident constituents. And a lot of these laws were put in place not intentionally to screw us, but because they just didn't think of us. You know, I don't, yeah, I'm giving them maybe too much credit when I say that. But um for example, the the original FATCA law was put in place to stop resident Americans from hiding money in overseas bank accounts. We should have been exempted. We call this the same country exemption, which is what we're fighting about, which is let us have an exemption from an account in our home country. You can't uh there's no counterargument to that, it is logical. So we have to keep making these really logical the arguments which have no counter-argument to them and just beat on the door.

SPEAKER_02 32:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

So that's what we do.

Gizane Campos 32:09

I wish you the best of luck. Thank you. And um also we'll admire the persistence because that's how you win. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Being persistent, it's not only about being hopeful, but trying and again and going again and again and again. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:25

It's hopeful, but not without basis.

Gizane Campos 32:27

Yeah, yeah, of course. Of course, yeah. Right, so let's talk about retirement now. Because um, you mentioned something about retirement early, and um, and I've got um interesting data also digged by um our superstar research lead, um Laura. Um, so you told me, Laura, that the World Bank data suggests that 10% of the global population, population, more than nearly 800 million, um, is currently aged 65 and above. Okay. Um, so in the United States, the rate of aging uh is uh markedly accelerated with the country having more than 17%, one seven percent of its population at the age of 65. And then, but you also told me something which I didn't make a note, I'm sorry, something about 2025.

Laura Madrid 33:26

Yeah, because the numbers are going to skyrocket in the uh next uh decade. So uh we we are actually discussing that um individuals and retirees in the US more less and less can rely on social security uh um funds and you know this the system. So uh sometimes people seek a relocation or even a second citizenship as a strategy to stretch their pensions further because of living costs, health care, and and other other motivations. So we were what we're trying to do in our um retirement guide for US expats is is is uh identifying motivations for people to want to relocate in in other countries and using very sophisticated uh data analysis to uh establish uh ranking of countries where these people can find what they want, like uh better quality of life, lower living costs, healthcare, uh and and other other um you know qualities of the the country of relocation where they they they want to relocate. So what I want to also to ask Doris is if you can identify from your membership countries where people re relocate more and why the motivations while people want to relocate uh when they they leave the US.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

We see a lot of people coming to Europe. And a lot of the motive, the number one motivation, I do believe, is is financially related and healthcare, for example.

Gizane Campos 35:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Healthcare in the United States is is very expensive, it's getting more and more expensive. And Americans are looking at how wonderful the healthcare systems are, especially in European countries. And they're looking at that. And Americans who are on the verge of retirement do have enough money to successfully live in many European countries because the cost of living outside of healthcare is also far less. If you just take a look at uh living in New York as opposed to Paris, uh it's a huge difference. Um and even the Southern European countries are even uh even, let's say, more affordable for Americans who would like to retire overseas. So it's it's for the retirees, I would say it has to do with uh being able to have a quality of life in a beautiful climate, uh, to have health care when you need it, and to to be able to smell the roses. To have the beautiful life that you read about in these glossy magazines. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Laura Madrid 36:26

Yeah, exactly. That that's why we identify when we were researching on international retirement migration, especially when we focus on uh American diaspora, that people are really uh trying to capture this uh European way of life, but also um trying to make their pensions to stretch further because here you you have this combination of reliable public healthcare system and the supplementary um insurance plans that you can also um affordably uh uh acquire. Another trend that we realize from people from the from US expats is that more and more the second citizenship is not um um is not seen as a as an abomination, as Professor Peter Spiro used to say. So people have more and more curiosity about the possibility of acquiring a second citizenship and um um are using this possibility as a strategy to relocate in the future or to even spend some time of the year in an European country and then uh go back to the United States uh to not have the problem of double taxation, for instance, because they're still going to need to have their residence in the in the US. So another uh uh trend among uh American uh uh and US citizens, I would say, is this uh interest on acquire a second citizenship by descent or by an investment migrations scheme, or you know, or taking advantages of the right to reside in another country uh if the country offers a retiree um visa or you know all these kinds of uh visas that are aimed for retired people. Yeah.

Gizane Campos 38:25

So tell me more, uh Laura, you're talking to us about your US retirement, your global citizen solutions intelligence unit retirement um study. So you are putting together a it's it's a white paper, it's actually a white paper, um, about trends that motivates US citizens to retire abroad. Um what did you find that was uh most um kind of uh most stark information that you you found uh through your your studies? Um something that you didn't think of, perhaps, or a destination that is quite popular?

Laura Madrid 39:13

First of all, I'm gonna talk a little bit about the methodology. We we identified uh eight indicators and we divide the indicators in three uh uh groups. So we have quality of life, we have uh acceptance uh and um acceptance. Migrant acceptance, integration and security and economics. So we put our indicators and we allocated the in um indicators in this uh uh main indicators, and we came up with this um uh 16 uh top countries for relocations for US citizens. And what we can what we identified, first of all, when you talk about motivations, of course, economics is super important and quality of life is extremely important as well. But more and more people are uh they show the desire to relocate due to security and political stability. Okay, and that's why the preferred countries would be European countries. Canada is still a country that um appeals a lot to US citizens because of you know the precision.

Gizane Campos 40:34

It ticks all the boxes of Europe as well. Minus the weather.

Laura Madrid 40:38

It is, it is uh um um the living costs are lower than in the US. Uh it's it's close to you know your your um your country, so you can't go and visit your family. But more and more people are um aiming to the European countries and some countries in South America, for instance. We we see that Uruguay is a country that people have show interest in, uh Costa Rica because of the proximity as well, yeah. And still countries like Australia and and New Zealand they they score high in their rankings because of the cultural proximity as well, along with the living costs and the quality of life, security, and economic political stability is more and more uh important for US citizenship, citizens when they want to relocate.

Gizane Campos 41:44

Yeah. Um we talk about retirement. Do you also feel it's um um the findings uh that Laura shared with us? Does it resonate with um with Arab members as well? Absolutely, yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 41:59

I fully agree. Those are those are the motivations that people do show when they move overseas. Yes.

Laura Madrid 42:06

Of course, you're gonna have also uh uh some issues related to family ties, and you know, when you have to move because someone of your family is living abroad or you know you fall in love, and then you you you are going to relocate because of this uh um this uh uh situations, but because we live in um in a world and in a in an era of polarization, I think people and I'm not talking about partisan uh partisan decisions or anything like this, it's general political dissatisfaction. So it is triggering the desire of you know citizens from the US uh wanting to relocate in a country where either they don't have anything with with the politics of the country, the local politics, or uh the political uh system is more stable and they know they're going to have their civil, political, and you know, uh economic rights respected. So we identify this trend.

Gizane Campos 43:22

Okay. That is very powerful, and I like to explore um a little bit more, um, but not on the um on the political drive, but more on the facts that um Americans are finally coming to terms with uh having a second citizenship and what makes them less American. And uh and it's an insurance plan that anyone with good sanity, you know, if you have an Italian surname, if you have you called Decentini or whatever, go and find if you can get your second passports, because it is insurance. Um So I'm gonna drop this question now. I'm sure you, this is what you've you've you found. But Doris, do you find this trend more popular now with with um US citizens? They are understanding that having a second citizenship is actually something, it's a currency, it's something that is of their benefit.

SPEAKER_01 44:21

I think that Americans are are starting, and I'm generalizing, of course, but I think Americans are starting to understand that they are not alone in the world. In fact, there was, I don't remember her name now. It was there was a uh a politician who had a second nationality. She was running for office, she was somewhere in the north, and she renounced that second nationality because there was a hue and cry that she wasn't American enough. Oh, right, because she had a second nationality, and that was within the last 10 years. So but I think that there's a different view of the world from Americans, especially since COVID. A lot of people have reassessed their lives. That pandemic really changed a lot of people's mindset towards their lives, their internal lives, and looking at their lives in the world. And and I see uh, let's say, a greater openness to looking outside of the United States. Um, and so I we we treat deal with people at Aero who've already moved overseas because we help them once they come. We don't help them to come. To come, yeah. So we talk to them once they're there. But in I go back to the states quite a bit. I'm back three times a year, at least, sometimes four, and I talk to a lot of people about what I do at Aero, and I find that the people I talk to, and I'm from Detroit, I I go to New York, so I have Midwest people, East Coast people, as well as people elsewhere. And I can see that there is a greater openness to life outside the United States by Americans. Is it fully open like Europeans? No. No, there's still this uh concept of American exceptionalism. We're the best people who still say to me, Well, why don't you come back? Why do you have to be over there? But now I think it's being said with more of a jealousy component, as opposed to a negative component. And you mentioned politics briefly, we're nonpartisan, so I'm not going to say anything about politics, but but there are a lot of unhappy people in the United States. And I think there's this idea that maybe life isn't so bad across the pond. Yeah. And there's more of a willingness to look at it. And I think a general dissatisfaction with one's life is what causes one to Google around, and then you Google around and you see that it is quite nice to possibly go somewhere else, and they try it for three, four months and say, well, maybe I'll go back next year. We have friends who have come to visit us in Paris, and they've come for, let's say, six weeks. This is like four or five years ago. Now they're here for three months, and next year they want to come for four months. So it's creeping up a little bit.

Laura Madrid 47:23

Yeah, and of course, because uh, you know, uh America is a country that is um is a mix of uh immigrants because you know, uh at the end, the US uh is is a country that received a lot of immigration, and people always have they always can look into their families and see if they can you know acquire citizenship by descent from Italy, from Spain, or from you know Portugal and many other countries. So I and this is a trend because this is the experts say that people more and more are investigating in their families if they can acquire uh citizenship from an European country. And as Doris said, they are Googling uh all the time and seeking if they can take advantage of a retirement uh uh scheme, a visa scheme in another country, or even investment migration, if they can buy property you know in an European or even in an Asian country, and then acquire the right of residency or uh a second citizenship. So as Doris said, I think also because of uh technology, communications, and because now we have this uh the industry, the relocation industry is growing and more developed and more and it is being democratized. People can try to take advantage of the growing of the industry and uh the information to check if they can spend three months a year in another country or six months or even relocate.

Gizane Campos 49:03

Um I know what you mean. Sorry to interrupt, but I know what you mean when you say by uh this industry being more democratic, because there was this perception in the past that people that lived abroad was just you know the ultra multi super rich. And um, and you see, with the rise of digital nomadism, all powered by the pandemic, um, and retirees also seeking um a better way of life uh that's different from the one they have back home, it's actually open to anyone, you just need to do your research and put effort. Um, but you you can do it.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

And I have a question for you, if I may, Laura. Do you see that because of genetic testing, that people are more interested in trying to get a second passport in a country in which the genetic testing has shown that they have a lot of Scandinavian blood or a lot of Greek blood? Because now that's really proliferated. A lot of people are doing that testing, and they're thinking, they're realizing the Americans more and more. What is American? American is a is it's a glut of a lot of other nationalities. Do you think that people are using that for to try to to look into second passports where they have historical roots?

Laura Madrid 50:23

Yeah, they might be using to check if they have some kind of uh biological link to you know, people to uh ascendants from another country, but when you when you talk about laws, you're gonna have the the requirements stated in the law, and usually what they do is uh requiring like um birth certificates and the and also many countries when you when you are in the process of acquiring second citizenship by blood, what they ask is um certificate that your uh ascendant didn't acquire the citizenship of the the country they moved to. So for instance, uh if you live in the US and you have uh an ascendant from Italy, what you have to prove to the Italian government is that that person that went from Italy to the US didn't acquire US citizenship. Because we have more information now on genetics and you know on ancestry in general. Uh it might drive people to to seek their their ascendance, but you're all you're always um um bound by what the law says. And each country has its own nationality laws because we don't have an international law on nationality, as you know, and still uh under the law, states have sovereignty to decide who they want to give this right, the citizenship right, and who they will not um grant this right. As you said in the when we were talking before the podcast, uh states still have a lot of discretion. And even like the public servant as that is dealing with your documents, this person still have a lot of discretion in um granting or denying the right of uh citizenship to a person. It's never like a guarantee. It you always have the right to um to file uh uh a solicitation, but you never know if you are going to be granted uh the citizenship or not, yeah. Or not.

Gizane Campos 52:48

This has been a really, really rich conversation. Um, I'm so glad, so glad to have you two here. And um just one note about the genetic test, Doris. I remember reading an article about um uh Sephardic Jews. Uh no, people just checking if they had uh some Sephardic Jew ascendance through the test first, and then they go through the document and on. Um, but not sure if this has uh made the search for a second citizenship more popular, but this I'm sure it certainly has sparked more interest once you find out that you've got like um 70% Baltic blood, or um, yeah. But yeah, great. Do you have any closing remarks? Anything else you want to say before we wrap up?

SPEAKER_01 53:44

Well, first, thank you very much for giving me the time and the ability to express what Arrow can do for Americans abroad. I think the only thing I would say is that the world is getting smaller and people are moving, and people are seeking their happiness where where they can find it, and it's not always in the country in which they're born. And and that's okay. And I think that the the various organizations such as Laura's, such as mine, to if we can make that transition a better transition, then let us help you.

Gizane Campos 54:23

This is beautiful. Because all of us in this room made this transition to another country, and it's not definite, it doesn't end there, it could be somewhere else, yeah. Okay, thank you.

Laura Madrid 54:35

And I yeah, I would say as we we also uh commented in the past, borders are fiction, are fictionary, and because of the development of industry and telecommunications and and um even like um mobility in general, uh more and more uh relocation, the the strategy of relocating is uh is is more and more accessible. So as we said, it's not only for people that uh have a lot of money, the fat cats, but if you go and do your your research on Google, you're gonna find that maybe you have this option, and you can even uh stretch your earnings your and your savings further if you if you relocate and you're gonna be in living a different life, you're gonna be experiencing new um things, new living in a new context, in a different context. And I think it's always uh enriching. Yeah, and stay tuned to our US retirement guide, which will be online soon, yeah.

Gizane Campos 55:45

Of course, maybe as you're watching or listening to us now, it's already there. Um, but that's it. Thank you very much. Thank you, and I'll see you guys soon. Thank you.