Gizane Campos 0:03

Hello and welcome back to Be Global, the podcast where we explore how wealth, freedom, and opportunity move across borders in today's fast-changing world. In this episode, we are going behind all the media headlines we are seeing about millionaires leaving their homes behind and diversifying their wealth across borders. We often hear about global mobility, which is the freedom to move across borders with a second residency or passport. Contrary to one might think, it's not just about moving your wealth, but your freedom and options too. Think a vacation home in San Kits and Nives or a Portuguese residency paired with setting up your business operations from Dubai. Basically, anything is possible. And to help us unpack what wealth mobility means in 2025 and how to protect your finances while gaining more freedom, which is what we all want, we are joined by Juan Pacheco Gonçalves. Say hello, Joan.

SPEAKER_00 1:28

Hi, Jusanne. Nice to be here. Thank you. Yeah, of course. So uh here at Global Citizen Solutions, I'm responsible for the institutional client relations. So this is our relations with family offices, private banks, wealth managers, etc. And I do it based here in Zurich in Switzerland.

Gizane Campos 1:50

Yes, so Jean is um I he has lived and worked in across continents from Portugal to China. Uh I heard you also lived in Moscow and uh and now you are in beautiful Switzerland. Um is that correct, Joan?

SPEAKER_00 2:07

It is, it is correct. Yes, so I I lived a bit all over the place. Um I mean I lived in Mozambique, in China, in Russia, in Moscow, also in Europe, a bit all over the place. I'm Portuguese originally, and uh for the past three years I've been in Switzerland, which is uh a personal record, I would say. Uh, and I think I will I will remain here. Yeah. I like the mountains.

Gizane Campos 2:30

I just wanted to reinforce how it gives you credit to talk about the subject that we want to explore today, which is mobility, because you clearly have done that a lot in your life. Um also I also would like to add that Joel has a background in international relations and um early experience in diplomacy at the Portuguese Embassy in Beijing. He later moved into private wealth, as he said, advising banks, family officers, and um global investors now from Switzerland. Today he leads institutional client relations at Global Citizen Solutions, helping clients and partners understand why mobility is becoming essential to more than wealth strategy. Joan, welcome to the show. So I'm gonna start with your story. How did you land in global mobility and what drew you to this base?

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Well, to start with, it's a very personal story. Um in the sense uh I was quite mobile uh for a good part of my life. So at uh 18 I started uh just traveling a bit, uh, either for in the beginning for studies originally, then also for work. Uh but so far I think I lived in around 10 countries. You know, in Europe, a bit all over Europe, uh, Netherlands, France, Ireland, Portugal, Switzerland, uh, Malta as well, although briefly. Um, I lived in China, Russia, Africa. I mean, with this, what I mean is I know what it is to be mobile, the importance of mobility, and I was just always naturally drawn into living, seeing uh other cultures and ways of living. And then from a career perspective, that was a natural transition. So the the first role I had was uh in the Portuguese embassy in China, and every subsequent role I had ever since was quite involved with the international side of things, of business. Uh, I worked at GCS. Um in I started in early 2021. Uh and I was working with, I mean, at the time with our clients, uh, which and we have a client base from all over the world, so it was very international uh in that sense in the the people I was dealing with. And then I moved to Switzerland. Uh, and this is where the the wealth management part kind of starts. So in the beginning, I was working um uh as an institutional client uh relations associate, similar to what I'm doing today, and then I was also working for a Swiss asset manager.

Gizane Campos 5:08

So, Joan, you gave us a slowdown of this many countries where you lived in, and uh we will talk about mobility strategy. But before we start um digging more about mobility, I wanted to ask you how difficult was it to settle in such different, such diverse countries?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

That's actually a really good question. So um in China it was somewhat easy uh because being with the embassy, you know, of course the conditions are different. Uh I mean, with the help throughout the process of relocating, finding an apartment, uh, bank account, etc. And even the visa is different. Uh, but still the actual integration in society in China it was quite hard uh for language, mainly for the language, uh language part. Uh I had to carry uh uh Google Translate with me uh at every single point of my existence in my period in China. But uh throughout the countries, as different as they they are, uh the ones I've lived, outside it's a bit similar to integration, just you uh you have to go with uh open mindset, open arms, um, and also some uh some degree of humbleness. So I never went to these countries trying to you know implement my way of life. I always try to adapt a bit. You know, in Rome, be a Roman. It's a Portuguese expression, probably also in English, we can say it. So that's really my mentality in all of the places I've lived. Also here in Switzerland, for example. I I've I I learned how to ski, and as a Portuguese, I can say it's hard. Yes. Uh are you good now at skiing? Not yet, and probably never will be, but uh, at least I can you know balance myself enough.

Gizane Campos 6:54

Ah, that's good. At least you try.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, exactly.

Gizane Campos 6:56

I won't say break your leg because that could be yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:00

Please don't.

Gizane Campos 7:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:01

Please don't.

Gizane Campos 7:02

But that's good, Jean. Thank you for giving us um such a uh candid insight of your of your life, and we could tell um that there is a lot uh of uh moving between countries, but there was a strategy, probably Korea related, if I'm not wrong. Um but I wanted to talk about now the mobility strategy for um when we are um considering wealth. So in your view, Joan, what does mobility mean today, especially for high net worth individuals?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Well, uh mobility is no longer uh connected to an actual location. So of course it still is, but a bigger part of it is becoming um not just a physical relocation, but having options uh without the relocation itself. So that's say it's a standby mobility, let's say. Um so 100 individuals are really looking for having, as we mentioned so many times in the conversations, having a plan B. So not moving tomorrow, but just knowing they can move. Uh but also talking about mobility, and we can speak about it after also in terms of mobility of their assets. Um, but come back to your question, what mobility means today is really just a hedge against political, mainly political and economic uh volatility, which has become more and more common uh in today's world. But also about unlocking new new potentials, you know, in terms of business, uh education, healthcare, or wealth planning.

Gizane Campos 8:45

Okay, that that was a good example of um how mobility um is relevant in this day and age. But I wanted to talk about wealth mobility, because that's a term um we've been seeing quite it's being used now quite often. And um but uh uh to me it seems it's so similar to mobility, and I want to grasp the real definition of that. So how do you define wealth mobility?

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Well, wealth mobility in in summary to be the um the ability to allocate your wealth across your different jurisdictions. Uh it's really about that. So you might be living uh in the uh in the US or in the UK or in China, but you have uh uh a portion of your net worth um across borders. And so with the concept of wealth mobility, um your money can go where you don't where you don't go. I mean, the deserter is really your assets. Uh and and the purpose uh of it is mainly to protect uh wealth and also to optimize it. Um talking about you know, of course, uh tax optimization, but also legal optimization, asset protection, currency uh diversification, uh, for example. And and above all, I mean, all of this uh is encompassed by jurisdictional uh diversification. And when you're talking about wealth mobility, it it needs to integrate uh legal part, the tax, as I mentioned. And nowadays, and that's the the the interesting part more and more, it's also including residency strategies as well.

Gizane Campos 10:31

Okay, Joan, thank you very much. Um you talked about wealth, um sorry, about mobility and um and wealth mobility. There's a good definition here, but I think um there there's also uh trends and changes in the last couple of years. So are you able to give us um a lowdown on on the changes within the the sphere of wealth mobility in the last couple of years?

SPEAKER_00 10:59

Yeah, definitely. So, in terms of changes in in wealth mobility, uh I would say there's definitely a uh pre-COVID and post-COVID. And um so the post-pandemic period uh and and the subsequent geopolitical instability we've been seeing uh a bit all over the globe at this point. Uh these factors accelerated uh interest in diversifying um your uh geography, let's say, in terms of wealth. Also, another factor uh that is that has been impacting a lot at this field is the um regulatory scrutiny. It's becoming more and more tight, um more compliance uh requirements, um you know, across some of the typical geographies where people were not were not were not used to it so much, let's say. And then also we can speak about um digitalization as well. So of course, as times move forward, the the newer generation of fine earth individuals are very mobile people, very um tech driven as well. Uh and this also helps them in a certain way to move faster, uh more agile uh in their lives, but also with with their assets, right? So uh this also has an impact in wealth mobility and uh and at the speed of change that we've been seeing in the last years.

Gizane Campos 12:30

Okay, no, that totally makes sense, and um and I think that explains the phenomenon of the digital nomadism since it that works, um people's works are now uh confined in within a laptop or a mobile phone, so they're able to do um uh work and change and move their assets remotely. So um I totally get that. But I also um I think you touched briefly on how in the past um people tended to move move into wealthier nations. But I believe that today we've seen the opposite. And why is that happening, Joel?

SPEAKER_00 13:14

One of the main concerns, of course, are rising tech tax pressures. I mean, the UK is a good example of that. Um also stricter residency requirements for some of these nations. But then I would say there's also um a perceived uh I don't know if it's real or not, but like that there is a perceived decline in quality of life um in in some of these traditionally wealthier uh nations. Talking about either security or um typically security, uh social tensions uh are becoming unfortunately more and more common as well, bureaucracy, etc. But then there's also the other part uh to answer your question, which is uh let's say these uh emerging destinations, um they are now some of them they now offer comparable or sometimes even better infrastructure with more flexibility. And and I think this makes a huge difference. I mean, we can uh obviously look at, for example, the UAE, uh what they have become you know in the last decade, uh two decades. It's it's impressive. That's a very good idea. So many other countries. Uh so and and also other other parts in the Middle East as well. Uh they're doing a great job in this in this sense. Parts of Asia, uh and even in Europe as well. Some other countries are now becoming uh are attracting lots of uh highness individuals. Italy, for example. Uh so Italy in a recent uh year or two, due to some of uh their new tax uh regimes um and incentives, they're attracting lots of uh highness individuals to the country. Um so yeah, it's a very dynamic uh industry, but just again answer your questions really how emergent destinations are now competing, offering real competition to some of the traditional names you're used to.

Gizane Campos 15:10

Great. Thanks, Jean. You gave us some really good points there, and I just would like to bring out that we have a um a fantastic center of uh platform actually, um, comprising of um uh reports on trends and um and um basically yeah, mobility trends, and it's called the Global Intelligence Unit, which I believe you also contributed with a few articles, Joel. Um but uh yeah, the the unit is led by our research team, sorry, research lead Dr. Laura Madrid Satoreto. And um if you jump into the global citizen solutions website, top bar, you will find um Global Intelligence Unit, and you will be able to read a lot about wealth mobility there and the mentions exactly this point, the countries um that uh Joan brought now um during his answer. Now, Joan, moving on. You talk to a lot of clients and people interested in moving uh their wealth across borders. I'd like to understand what's motivating them to move their wealth across now.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

Well, the main, I would say really the main uh point is risk mitigation. Uh and coming back to what we spoke, so political, economic, social instability. So main point will be risk mitigation. Uh second point um maybe falls into this one, but it's let's say future-proofing uh their wealth, either on an individual level or a family level. Uh, you know, lots of our clients that they have kids, they have grandkids, and they want to be to make to be sure that uh they will have the same access and opportunities they did. And speaking about access, I'll also say as a third point, access to new markets and opportunities in general. So it is common, you know, for some of our clients, uh, they don't move immediately, but maybe their kids will move, you know, and uh do a career in Europe, for example, or or or in the US or in other places. It's also about mobility in that sense to go to go grab other opportunities uh when they think their country isn't really offering them at the moment.

Gizane Campos 17:33

I see.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Um yeah.

Gizane Campos 17:34

I see. That that's a good point. So um you don't necessarily need to move to another country right now, you're happy where you are, but uh plan uh to move your assets to another country for perhaps um the better education for better education of your offspring um is a good strategy. Um, I see some people um conceiving second citizenship as a let's say lifestyle boost, whilst others see it as a backup plan, as you said. Um and how do you see it? How do you what do you think second citizenship is?

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Well, above all, it's it's almost like a like an insurance policy, you know, it's just uh an added sense of security. Um it's about freedom of movement uh and freedom of choice as well for the next generation and for the current generation applying. It's it's just uh in general, it's a lifestyle upgrade. Um you know, these clients they see it mainly as um as a plan B again. You know, recently every time we speak about this, we end up speaking about plan B. Uh, but it but it's just the way people see it, and even people say it. Uh and some people uh they even go for a plan C. You know, uh as you know, for example, here at uh GCS, we've had clients that are doing two programs at the same time. So we're talking about plan B, plan C. Uh maybe one that will be do a plan D as well, so three programs at the same time.

Gizane Campos 19:12

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:13

But uh it's really about uh future proofing and uh just sleeping uh in peace at night.

Gizane Campos 19:22

That's it.

SPEAKER_00 19:22

Knowing that uh yeah, they have a second option in the world.

Gizane Campos 19:25

That's what a good insurance policy does to you, isn't it? It gives you that good sleep at night.

SPEAKER_00 19:30

Exactly.

Gizane Campos 19:31

Um it's also an investment if you're looking at a citizenship, another passport, another book that could open doors to um other countries. Moving on. There's a lot of talk about the end of investment migration. I'm really sorry, but I need to address the elephant in the room. Um and um and you see articles, and um, and there's also the facts Spain shut down, it's called a visa, Malta is currently facing a lot of pressure. So, what's your take on this?

SPEAKER_00 20:05

Well, my take uh and uh well I'm being recorded now, so for sure we can check this in five years to see if I was right or not. But my take on this is uh these programs are here to stay. Uh the thing is demand is just it's structurally high. Uh, the way society on a global scale, the way society has developed itself, even though there's a slowdown in globalization, or I think I maybe perceive, but I do think it's happening with all the current economic uh turmoil happening a bit, wars, etc. Also post-COVID world, even though globalization is slowing down, people are still very mobile. And especially uh hundred individuals. These are people that they got used to the lifestyle of they might live in the US, but they like to know to go shopping in Milan, uh, travel to Southeast Asia or just have a holiday home in Monaco, for example, or South France. They're used to this, and if they feel this lifestyle is being threatened, they will look for options. So demand is just there, uh, it's growing year after year. So, and then about the program shutting down, it's just a part of the business. You know, currently there are around 40 programs opened. You mentioned Spain shutting down Golden Visa, for example, but well, Argentina just uh opened or is going to open uh their citizenship by investment program. So one closes, another opens. And uh my take is you know, governments will continue to compete for talent, uh, but also for capital. And this is the case with Italy, for example, you know, with their recent program, which has been quite successful so far. They've been attracting lots of finite individuals and they're out that left the UK, for example, uh, left London and they're moving to Closer geographies, Switzerland, for example, historical one, but now also to Italy. And this is happening only in the last two years. So even though some programs may close, uh others will open and the demand is there, and there will always be governments willing to offer something for these people.

Gizane Campos 22:20

Correct. I think perhaps the uh the naming of these programs, they will change from time to time, but their um importance um is quite solid in our society right now. Given uh my uh the example that I will give it's basically the lifetime of the Caribbean programs. They were the precursors, they started and they're still going on, obviously uh facing changes and adapting to um the the trends and the changes in in um a global economy, uh geopolitical as well, geopolitical changes, but uh they're still here. So very good. Now we talked about the past, we talked about the present. Now I will invite you to a very mindfulness exercise. Um I want you to so let's let's zoom out. Let's think of 10 years from now. Okay. What does the future of wealth mobility look like to you, Joan?

SPEAKER_00 23:28

Um well if if if things that's actually an interesting one. So if things keep going in in this current direction, I would say maybe not, maybe in 10, maybe a bit more, maybe in 15 years, 10, 15. I I think a big difference would be it will shift from uh being a luxury to almost a necessity. You know, because we're talking about even middle-high, uh, high-class um people, they they so they they will want to preserve their wealth, no matter if it's if it's an ultra-high-net individual or a high-net individual or a middle high class individual, um, they want to preserve their wealth in uh in certain geopolitical landscape in general, right? So outside the future of wealth mobility will really it it will just become uh the norm. Uh it's already becoming the norm nowadays. You know, as I mentioned, you know, something in the past, maybe 20, 30 years ago, uh clients would have the majority of their assets in their own jurisdiction. That isn't the case anymore. And I think it will the difference will just keep growing. So it will be more and more and more common for people to live in one place or or more, but let's say for sake of simplicity, they live in one country and they have their wealth spread across different countries, geographies, uh legal jurisdictions, etc. So yeah, I would say maintake, it will go from luxury to almost uh a need.

Gizane Campos 24:59

A necessity, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Yeah.

Gizane Campos 25:01

Okay. Okay, thank you, Joel. That was your um your vision of the future, but not a psychic one, but based on science. Exactly. And um and the trend and everything that you're seeing from clients right now. So um I'd like to thank you for joining us. Unfortunately, time is uh constrained, so we have to finish. But um, but yeah, thank you for sharing your thoughts. What is clear from this conversation is that mobility is becoming a wealth strategy. It helps people keep their wealth safe and plan ahead. So, to all of our listeners, if this episode sparked new questions for you or made you rethink your own plan, visit global citizensolutions.com where you can explore more tools, insights, and our full wealth mobility briefing. Until next time, stay curious, be global, and I see you then.