Gizane Campos 0:03

Hello and welcome back to Be Global, the podcast where we explore how wealth, freedom, and opportunity intersect in today's world. I am Suzanne Campos, and today's episode, Building Communities in the Age of Digital Nomadism, is inspired by the latest digital nomad report from Global Citizen Solutions. In our research, Spain, Netherlands, and Uruguay topped the ranking of the best countries for digital nomad workers. We will be looking at what it really means to design a life of freedom and flexibility in today's changing world. And for that, joining me today is Ali Green, a remote work expert, community builder, and the author of Remote Works. Ali will be here.

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Thank you so much for having me.

Gizane Campos 0:58

Ali has been at the forefront of the digital nomad movement and creating innovative co-living projects. She is passionate about autonomous living and believes deeply in the power of intentional community building. But I will leave up to Ali to introduce herself. Ali, welcome to Be Global.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yes, well, thank you so much. Already that was a wonderful introduction. I think the most common question or look that I get when I try to explain my lifestyle or answer even very simple questions that one might have in small talks, such as, where are you from, always can be quite difficult for me to answer because how I got into living this lifestyle was by the nature of, you know, everybody goes through their life journey and maybe they graduate from university or they decide they're ready to leave their family unit and explore what it's like for them to be an adult. And for me, I had a very similar story where I went off to university. I had the privilege of studying abroad, and I knew how transformative travel could be to my outlook on life, my confidence, my sense of belonging. And it was something where I really found myself feeling at home in places that I had never been to before. And I think chasing that sense of belonging is where I got my digital nomad start. I've also always been a bit of a question ask. And so after having a university set up where I was given a lot of independence and autonomy and self-agency through the culture of where I studied to then graduate from this midpoint to the real world and go into an office environment where I was told I had to be in a specific seat from the hours to nine to five, never gelled with me. So as I explored my career mostly in tech startups with a background in organizational behavior, I always questioned why do people have to sit in an office and try to be productive and motivated when productivity and motivation can come from the work itself. And these days, with all of the advances in technology, that work can be done anywhere. And so I've since then dedicated my career to being able, at first just for myself, to find the flexibility. And then after realizing that this is a learned skill and a muscle that you need to work out in order for it to work for you. And so I've spent time helping other people and organizations learn the skill set to work remotely. But my reason for all of that, the the base of that is so that people can choose intentionally how they want to live their lifestyle, what types of people they want to surround themselves, what environmental, you know, circumstances, countries, culture, weather make them feel at their best, not just for when they're doing their work, but when they're enjoying their life as well. And that's why the digital nomad group or identity, uh uh, depending on what you want to call it, is something that is so near and dear to my heart.

Gizane Campos 4:27

Thanks, Ali. Um I did read a lot about your your journey, and uh and what's uh really strikes me is the um the inspiration that um came from not really fitting in in the corporate world. So but I think from what I read and now from your answer, it it it's not being a digital nomad doesn't didn't only come from not fitting as a corporate material, but um you also found purpose in um creating communities as a digital nomad. So then now I want to ask you what is your definition of um of a community as a nomad?

SPEAKER_01 5:19

Yes, I love this question. I'm very keen on having shared definitions, even if someone assumes the word is commonly defined. So when I think of community as a nomad, for me, and you you described this in your introduction as well, the word intentionality is very important to me. So, community as a nomad really is about having a group of individuals that are coming together because of a specific intention. I think it stands out to be a community and not just a gathering of people when you're purposeful in the interactions and you create a way of having that sense of belonging and that emotional tie to this shared group, even if it's more casual and social and distance through things like certain rituals or events and a general familiarity with others. And the nuance of this, and I think why it's so hard to define, is because I do believe there's different types of communities, and so community is one word, is no longer good enough. Um, in my writing, I talk about having a deep community versus a wide community, and I think this is where people can start to understand and navigate expectations that might exist for them. Because even in a wide community, let's say you're part of a co-working space that does a regular afterwork event weekly, you have that sense of familiarity, which is a key indicator of the definition I use because you're saying seeing the same people work or maybe getting a coffee in the shared spaces. And then I think certain nomads crave an even deeper experience with community. And this is when you start to see a strong sense of overlap in terms of values. Maybe there's stronger emotional or intellectual depth to the conversations and the relationships that's building and shared interests beyond the fact that you like to travel and you work remotely. And so, what else is there that's the glue holding people together?

Gizane Campos 7:24

This is amazing. When did you come across this um um definition? When it became clear to you, was there like a particular moment as a digital nomad, a specific community that you were helping build the?

SPEAKER_01 7:37

I don't think I think it's still evolving for me. So this is my definition of today. And if you ask me six months later, maybe I'll I'll be even more nuanced in my definition. But why this definition is really important to me is I've been traveling in some form or fashion as a nomad for about a decade. And when I first started, I actually was not seeking community in my experience. I didn't know how many other people were traveling and working remotely. Um, the word digital nomad was not being heavily used. And so I went off on my own and I traveled and I worked, and I didn't necessarily seek others. And that experience can only be sustainable for so long because, as you know, human creatures, we crave connection. And being social, I think, is such an innate part of my personality and what makes me feel happy and engaged. So I started seeking out communities in the digital nomad space, whether it was things like travel programs where you work and travel with people or places that promoted themselves as digital nomad co-livings or accommodation for nomads. And after a few years, you get a lot of experiences, some better than others and some very bad. And through this sense of disappointment and also like sense of enthusiasm that I felt after I left a certain community, it made me wonder if everybody's promoting community as an offering, how come I feel really good in some spaces and I feel that things are missing in others? And that's when I started being more intentional about my research and trying to determine what are the indicators that show that this is the community that will be the right fit for me. How do people think of community? What types of offerings do they provide that will make it a successful experience for what I'm looking for? And then in my research and talking with other nomads and other remote workers, whether they're part-time nomads, workationers, or full-time travelers, realizing that their needs and desires differ from mine made me realize there's more than one type of community. And that's the process of now talking about these two different types in terms of depth and width. So it's been an evolution born out of my own good and bad experiences that I've applied research to, and I'm continuing to develop that. It's very much still in its preliminary stages. So I think I'm excited to get even more detailed uh from here on out.

Gizane Campos 10:18

Absolutely. And tell me one thing. Do you think the concept of communities um is getting misunderstood?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yes. Um not just in the digital nomad space. I think the concept of what it means to be part of community is misunderstood, generally speaking. I think that in today's world, a lot of companies are using community as a form of marketing, or they're using it as a form of customer service and customer success. So it's become a really powerful buzzword across many industries. But the problem with that is it means different things to different people. And so without these companies defining how they use the word community, people are just like inundated with hearing this word, and the word is losing its meaning. So because the business world is approaching it in all these various ways, and people are approaching it in various ways, there's a lack of just like real consideration to when, how, and why we use the word.

Gizane Campos 11:25

I agree. I think um maybe later we will dig a bit deeper into the concept of a deep and wide community, because I really like that and um and also about your book, Remote Works. Um, because it's very interesting that you bring to the picture um not only the life of a digital nomad as what comes with it, but also remote working, which often does not require you um living in a different country. So we'll we'll go through all of that. But now I wanted to talk about the global digital nomad report that was launched um this week by Global Citizen Solutions at the um digital nomad conference in Nebriche in Spain. And um Ali was one of the speakers, so really glad to have you there. And um also um the panel comprised of many um scholars and academics that are now talking about uh digital nomad um policy, government policy, and lots of other elements that make this uh lifestyle possible. So with just a few uh data here that I find important from our report, is that 91% of the digital nomad visa programs launched since 2020, and it's not a coincidence, it was a pandemic that got a list creating a massive wave of location independent workers. Ali, I want to ask from your experience building communities, what are the key elements needed to create genuine depth in nomad communities rather than just surface level networking?

SPEAKER_01 13:16

So I think this is a really great question. And so for me, I'll preface this while saying while I don't think there's necessarily a good or bad type of community, I personally seek out communities that are quite deep. I look for depth in my social interactions and therefore my community. And what's always been interesting to me when I see a new digital nomad visa first come out, especially if it's a country that I've never considered visiting before, I ask myself, well, why would I go to that country? Who am I going to be spending time with and what is my life gonna look like there? And so again, it goes back to this sense of what is the core intention? And for me as someone who seeks out digital nomad communities and community in general in terms of how I approach my life, the strongest key element needed to create this genuine depth is that core intention. And I'll take it a step further. I like to call it, you know, maybe this exists before my knowledge as well, um, in there. But I found when I think about what communities are really meaningful and deep to me that usually you need to take three steps in. It's sort of like that game that you play where you ask yourself why, and then why, and then why again, and you keep exploring until you get a deep answer. I think within community for whether this is digital nomads, expats, really anybody, what are the three connection points that make sure that you can create that ladder of depth? And so, for example, being a digital nomad or having the ability to work remotely, that's like one point. So you have one point of connection there. Maybe everybody that you're trying to interact with is currently in Spain. And so that's your second point of connection. Now you're digital nomads in Spain, but that's where a lot of communities stop. And I find that to be not deep enough. And so I think then what can be the third point of connection? Maybe it's digital nomads in Spain who love hiking, or digital nomads in Spain who want to talk about AI, or have a shared value, like they're very family-oriented. And that's when I think communities get really interesting, is when they get to that third level of connection or that third level of depth. Um, and then there's a lot of like logistical things that you can do to like really solidify that common topic or that common interest or value. And so thinking back to my work in organizational behavior and human resources and stuff that actually I talk about from a business standpoint in Remote Works book, but it's also quite important to think about it from a community building standpoint or things like how do you onboard, you know, new employees but new community members? How do you communicate standard operating behaviors? Maybe as your community, you have an online wiki that talks about the cultural norms of how you engage with people. I think the best elements I also see when it creates depth in community is there's a specific methodology of how to co-create. So whether the events are curated top-down, um, there's like, you know, a weekly Monday lunch, which was a common ritual in a certain nomad community I was part of, but also teaching people how to create things for the community bottom up. So more informal. Hey, I want to go to this comedy show. Who else wants to join me? And then finally, a key element, you need a dedicated place to communicate this information. So a lot of communities that I'm a part of will use Slack or WhatsApp groups to have a digital element to the in-person spending time with each other. And I think that's a great facilitator as well for letting people get a little bit deeper because they can plan before they even arrive on site. Here are some people I'm gonna meet. I'm gonna be prepared when I get there. While you're there, you can spend time with people, and it's a great tool to keep in touch and to continue to develop that relationship after the fact as well. And those are key indicators that I don't only believe in. I think there's a lot of people I really admire in this space that talk about that as success metrics as well. So I'll definitely mention one of my favorite places, Chateau Co-Living. And Katia, who runs the Chateau Co-Living, also talks quite a lot about these sort of key indicators of success and how they evaluate their own community. And her evaluation of how people engage on the digital aspects is really inspiring for then seeing it come to life in person.

Gizane Campos 17:59

Where is Chateau Co-Living located?

SPEAKER_01 18:02

It is located in Normandy in France, and yes, it is in a real chateau. So very cool.

Gizane Campos 18:08

Oh, of course. And yes, I do I really like the the how you you bring um the shared values as a third level of um connection for communities. Um, but you also brings up quite a lot the topic of resources. Um and I want to come up with something else, which um another data from from the report, and that maybe could also shed a light on what else is needed to give support to digital nomads. So our report reveals huge variations on how governments are approaching digital nomads. Um some Asian countries require an average of $72,000 in income, while some Latin American countries um require no minimum or an application fee ranging from $10 to $2,800. So given your perspective on community self-organization, what what's your take on governments essentially pricing digital nomad access? Are these policies helping or are they hindering the authentic community building you advocate for?

SPEAKER_01 19:26

Yeah, I think this is a really interesting question. And and when I hear this question immediately, a lot of the work that Kaizu does, who was sitting in a panel at the event uh for the launch of the Nomad Report, comes to mind in terms of who are the categories of people we're talking about. Are we talking about the occasional workation or who's gonna spend a few weeks in your country and maybe you get additional tourism dollars for them? Or when you're talking through these visa processes, is it more people who are going to stay and integrate in the community? And so while I do understand there's a need to ensure that people are not gonna be a drain on the country's resources and systems, especially if they're staying longer and they're gonna be more integrated into the community long term, um, it is very interesting in terms of then who is this actual visa or experience or opportunity accessible for? And in some ways, like it's actually beneficial to community building in the sense that it's gonna be a certain type of person with a certain value set who and a certain you know kind of socioeconomic ability to spend that's gonna be attracted to some of these countries versus others. And if you have a group of people that are attracted to the same country, have potentially similar amounts of disposable income and things of that nature, then you're finding a group of people who can have some shared experiences with one another in those countries. So, like on one hand, I don't see it as a challenge against these community building um aspects or elements or abilities to create community, but I do think that there's other things that nomads and nomad communities can benefit uh the local country as well in terms of that integration. And so if you do make it easier for nomads to come and spend time in your country and you're attracting them to stay, well, are they people that in the future, maybe three years down the road, five years down the road, wants to build a startup and have it based in that country? So I don't think only thinking about the immediate dollar amount is useful because people are going to be in different parts of their journey, uh, especially from a socioeconomic standpoint. And I do think a lot of these price points, you know, exclude a huge segment of nomads who can otherwise build community and Find themselves in a more organic way. So I guess my answer seems a little bit uh wishy-washy. I don't think that I'm necessarily the right person to comment on the nature of like policies and politics themselves. But I do see on one hand, it can be a way for people to self-select into a certain group, but on the other hand, it's limiting the amount of diversity and the amount of innovation that you're opening yourself up to in terms of who can come and create and be part of the community as well.

Gizane Campos 22:31

Absolutely. No, I think you you nailed it, and uh it's it's not a straight answer. Um the bottom line is um countries are not opening up those um programs, stational med visa programs, because they think it's cute, but it's because there is a demand and um people are here to and they are going to do that work remotely. And um, but you know, we um it is the minimum is expected to give them support to connect as a community. So now I want to move on to the corporate um sorry, the remote work evolution in in the corporate scenario. Um you've written quite extensively about remote work and and you also helped companies to um navigate distributed team cultures. Um we are seeing a lot of governments treating uh the digital nomad visa programs um uh as a temporary rather than a permanent solution. Um from a corporate perspective, how should companies be thinking about supporting employees who want this nomadic lifestyle? And what does sustainable remote work culture look like when your workforce is truly global?

SPEAKER_01 24:00

Yes, I I think this is interesting as well, in the sense that there's a few different reasons why companies should care about this and need to be aware of this. So, on one hand, first and foremost, I would say not every remote worker wants to be a digital nomad, and companies need to understand what types of workers will fit best in their organization, whether they're hybrid, whether they're fully remote, whether they're fully remote and fully location independent, are three different types of companies. The first thing I would really encourage companies to do is to be more open-minded around what it's like to employ a digital nomad. Everybody always jokes about like the bad reputation that digital nomads might get and these very unrealistic pictures of nomads working on a laptop on a beach chair, which, like, first of all, you get sand in your keyboard and there's glare, and it doesn't really work. And so immediately I think there's like this stigma or this hesitancy to like take digital nomads seriously, which I don't understand because I've you know been able to achieve so much and have been like unlocked to so much inspiration and met so many amazing people in my journey because of traveling and working remotely. So the first thing I would say to companies is be open-minded by looking at how you can employ digital nomads, you're bringing to your organization a wealth of transferable skills. Digital nomads are people that can like problem solve on the go, they're really creative, they have to be good at organization because they're keeping track of things like visas and their flights and this and that. Um, and they're people that optimize for productivity so that they can enjoy spending time in the physical location that they're in. And those are great skills to bring to an organization. So, from like a first kind of just mindset shift, that's something that I stand really strongly for. Uh, and then the next level is how companies are interacting with these digital nomad visas. And this is an open question for me as well, because I see a lot of these visas and a lot of them are great for freelancers. Um, there's, you know, kind of minimum earning requirements for some of these visas, but there's still a lot of questions that exist in how these visas impact the organization, not just the person. And I do think more research needs to be done with this and more conversations need to happen between the people that are designing these visas and corporations themselves to make sure it's clearly understood what the risk is and the benefit for the corporate level in terms of things like permanent residency. And this is where, like, disclaimer talk to you know, an employment lawyer, immigration lawyer about all of this stuff. But I do think that making it easier for corporations to understand this then will lead, hopefully, to corporations having very clear digital nomad policies in place, depending on their level of corporate risk, depending on what their unique situation is, where then employees know what's allowed and what's not allowed because of this digital nomad policy. Um, so I think that's gonna be like the next step in all of this is like, how do you write an NHR policy for a company that helps people understand that they can travel, in what capacity they can travel, where and for how long they can travel, and maybe even work hopefully in the future directly with some of these visas to create programs where it's really beneficial for all the stakeholders. Um, so that's sort of like the legal visa standpoint. And then finally, I would just say like you need to reset certain expectations with each location. So whether you're an employee working for a globally distributed team or a freelancer, knowing how you land somewhere, how much time you need to settle in, how you can get your work set up logistically right, what hours of the day in each place make sense for you to work based on time zone contingencies, all of those need to be constantly re-evaluated. And if you create a template for yourself with all these questions about how you approach your work day, and you can share it easily with your manager, with your teammates, with your clients, I think that'll help people as well take out a lot of just the ramping up when you're in a new place.

Gizane Campos 28:37

Okay, okay, thank you. I want to dig it a bit further there, and I will I want to talk about the possible end of remote work. Uh some remote work uh skepticals often um like to predict that we are seeing the end of it, everyone's coming back to the office. You mentioned hybrid working before, so I think you are in the good the good place to answer. Um, do you think it is the end of remote work, or are we just seeing the beginning of a more mature, a different type of remote work?

SPEAKER_01 29:19

So I do not think the end of remote work is near, uh, but I don't think taking my word for it is enough. There is a report that I lean on for this data called the Flex Index, and they do quarterly updates uh mostly with companies in the United States to ask them about their remote work policies. And in their most recent report, I believe from August of this year, two-thirds of US firms continue to offer some sort of location flexibility. And only 34% require people in the office full-time. So what this means is more or less numbers have been plateauing out and staying consistent. And again, a really interesting detail here in terms of remote work is smaller companies generally skew to offering more flexibility. So as new companies and startups are created and born and enter the ecosystem of what type of work is available, I think we're gonna see companies that sway in a certain category. So whether it's fully on-site, hybrid, fully remote but not nomadic, or fully location independent or remote worldwide will be labels that companies use moving forward. And I think that remote work is an aspect of many of them. And then the question is how many of them will continue to lean nomad friendly? And I'm curious to see that shift as well.

Gizane Campos 30:51

Okay. And then again, I know Ali, you don't have a crystal ball, and I keep asking you things about the future, but uh but I'll ask, and um, I wanted to ask you about um now the other spectrum of uh remote working, which is the nomadic living. So, how do you envision the future of nomadic living? Do you think we will see more intentional long-term communities for me, or is the constant movement inherent to the lifestyle of a nomad?

SPEAKER_01 31:27

I would say yes and no, like both. Uh the obvious, like obviously it stems from the etymology of the word nomadic, that a sense of you know, continuing to nomad and to travel is born into the word. But I do think that people will evolve. And I look at my own life cycle of being a nomad, and I think that my prediction is that my life cycle is not unique to the global life cycle of industries that exist. So when I first started traveling and working remotely, I was there for the adventure and the excitement, and I was happy to be alone, and it was this new period of my life. Then I decided I really wanted to seek people that I could spend time with, that I could do activities with, and I could co-work with, and I found these communities, but because I was still exploring, I was going to lots of different types of these communities, and maybe I would see people again and maybe I wouldn't. And then as I got more settled into the community even further, I found that I had similar travel cadences and pathways to certain people. And you hear about this example often. I'm going to highlight another co-living that I really enjoy, which is called Burgess Co-Living in Bulgaria. And it's not uncommon at that co-living for people to return the same month of the year every year. So you sort of have this cohort of people that know each other along with newcomers as well. And so people with similar interests, similar desires geographically will find themselves moving uh sometimes together and sometimes not. And then I think you'll see this idea of like regular reunions with people you really connect with in communities. So I do think these are potential future like industry models that exist in terms of who are the people that are always going to return here? Is it like a multiple-based, more long-term, deeper community? And what are the things that you will do or experiences you have to offer that will get people a bit out of this routine? And then I think of things like pop-up communities and experience or event-based gatherings as well.

Gizane Campos 33:43

Sure. Sure. It's basically um you need what we've seen the scenario is evolving as uh communities are also evolving with their own needs. Um, you talked about the family community that you helped um set up as well. Um, you know, and as kids grow, or the needs will acquire, so they might need to be a bit more nomadic in that sense, as in go to another country, so they can roll and enroll in a school. Um or um it's there's also visa policies. There are many elements that go into this journey of being a nomad um that might require stopping for a moment or carry on um being a nomad. Um Ali, we are reaching the end, but I feel that I I still need to know how many countries you lived in as a digital nomad.

SPEAKER_01 34:48

I don't even know if I have a count. I I don't have a count at this moment, but I will say I can share places this year alone, maybe. Let me see. Um it's not uncommon that I spent time in five to seven places this year. So I don't know what the count is because now I'm getting to the point too where I return back to places that I love, where I have these reunions and these communities. Um there's still a lot more countries on my bucket list, and even more after the uh the launch of the report, I was realizing that some of these top nomad friendly destinations I have never been to. So uh there's always more to explore, and I'm always surprised when I think back to how busy my travel schedule was.

Gizane Campos 35:41

And uh Ali, can you name three special places that you go back to because you feel this is close to home? It's almost like home to me. I really need to spend more time here and recharge.

SPEAKER_01 35:53

Yes, I love that question. Um, I find myself always wanting to return to Spain. Um there's just something really magical for the country as a whole. There's a lot of places in Spain that are very close to my heart, and it's always impressive to see the development of communities in Spain, especially in rural areas. So there's so many new places on my bucket list in Spain alone that I have not visited yet that I want to. Um so that's a place that that is really, you know, close to me and makes me smile. Um, I I think as well, a place I have not been back to, but a place that's really meaningful and memorable to me was Cape Town. It was a place where I I met the co-author of my book. I met people that are still part of my close friendship and community of nomads, and just such a beautiful place in terms of scenery and hiking, which is my third point of connection for a lot of community, is I love to hike. And so places that offer that uh immediately get bonus points for me. And then some of the co-livings that I mentioned, Chateau Co-Living, Burgess Co-Living are places where the vibe is just very special.

Gizane Campos 37:15

Oh, nice. I'm sorry, I'm taking some notes here to visit these places. Um, I have been to Cape Town many times in my life, but I agree with you. Spain's a place I always need to go back to to recharge, and um, and yeah, it feels like the country is alive. Um, yeah, like everything from the food to all the festivals and um the lifestyle.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Yes, I couldn't have said that better. There's just an energy that you get when you're in there.

Gizane Campos 37:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I totally get it. Uh, but yeah, the Shahtoiko living is a very interesting um concept, and I'm really looking for I'm looking forward to visit it. So, my last question before we go, and of course, I think a lot of people they look up to you now when it comes to digital nomadism. So, I want to ask, what would you tell someone um hesitant about embracing the nomadic lifestyle?

SPEAKER_01 38:20

Yeah, I think the first thing I would ask someone is what is your why? I think knowing your own intention is really important and helping you make decisions and figure out how you want to travel, where you want to travel, in what format you want to travel. Uh so knowing what your internal pull is is really important. And then I maybe this advice feels like the opposite of a lot of the like exciting advice you can see on blogs or Instagram. But I would say step one, do short experiments. I'm a dip your toe in the water kind of person when it comes to living a nomadic lifestyle. While uh academics and companies and people can't agree on a clear definition of being a nomad just yet. So embrace the fact that there isn't a clear-cut rule of what makes you a nomad and have many nomadic experiences to get comfortable with the lifestyle, to figure out the skill sets you need to be able to work on the road and to see if you even enjoy it before getting rid of your house and selling all your stuff and some of those things that we see that are quite cliche. Um, you get to define what this lifestyle means for you, at least until we have a shared definition. And so just approach it with a sense of curiosity and knowing yourself.

Gizane Campos 39:42

Sure, sure. That is great advice, Ali. Thank you so much for joining us today.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Um thank you for having me.

Gizane Campos 39:51

Your insights were really meaningful and uh and they are truly, truly valuable to anyone researching or bitten by the insect of um remote working and digital nomadism. Um, you should definitely find out more, dive deeper into Ali's work on remote teams and community building. You can you can check out her website at aligreen.xyz. It will be written as well in case I'm not pronouncing it correctly. But thank you very much. And for our listeners who want to learn more about the Global Digital Nomad Report and explore the best destinations for location independent living, visit globaltidsolutions.com. Thank you for listening to Be Global. Until next time, keep exploring how to build your own path to freedom and opportunity. Bye bye.